Precisely. It even works if a user is only using a command line interface such as those using Gentoo or GRML. On 2 Dec 2009, at 19:56, Chris Hofstader wrote:
> The darnedest thing about Spaces, though, is that it is little more than > having multiple UNIX-like desktops which is a really obvious task on every > GNU/Linux distro out there and one would think that having UNIX in its bowels > that Apple would have gotten this for free or at least a low cost. > On Dec 2, 2009, at 2:44 PM, James & Nash wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> >> You wrote: >>> Spaces is far from obvious with VO) >> >> This is because Spaces is conceptually broken. You can't imagine the times >> I've E-Mailed Apple trying to explain why this is and waht an excellent >> feature this would be if it only worked as it should. >> >> TC >> >> James >> On 2 Dec 2009, at 19:35, Chris Hofstader wrote: >> >>> I actually think VO provides much better support for the stuff that ships >>> installed on a Macintosh than JAWS does with a lot of the Windows stuff. >>> VO may miss a few things (I find TimeMachine restores pretty hard to use >>> with VO and Spaces is far from obvious with VO) but JAWS still doesn't work >>> with the built-in dictation program and misses a whole lot of stuff in a >>> lot of Windows utilities - sure, an expert user can get at stuff using the >>> JAWS Cursor and by writing scripts but, out-of-the-box, VO gets far more of >>> the basic Macintosh stuff right than JAWS does with Windows. >>> >>> Also, the Trackpad Commander provides a wholly new and very exciting way >>> for a blind user to navigate that, when people get used to it, will improve >>> efficiency enormously while JAWS remains in the unidimensional world of a >>> long list of semantic blips. >>> >>> cdh >>> cdh >>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:34 PM, Scott Howell wrote: >>> >>>> And that is your opinion as well and I completely disagree with you. >>>> However, you as I are entitled to your opinion and having used both >>>> windows and the Mac on a regular basis, I find that there are many tasks, >>>> which are much easier to perform with VOiceOver than Window-Eyes. I have >>>> never used JAWS and of course at this point I wouldn't bother since I'm >>>> not interested in learning something new since I can do what I need with >>>> what I got. However, with the quick-nav feature of VO, I have found it >>>> takes less keystrokes then before. You can argue that interacting is >>>> perhaps one issue and with a windows=based screen reader that may be true >>>> depending on the screen reader, but at the same time I don't have the >>>> multitude of issues with VO as I do with WE when dealing with MSAA. >>>> It's obvious JAWS is your preference and honestly that's fine. What >>>> matters in the end regardless of whether we agree or not is that you have >>>> the tools to get the job done. That is one point I think we can both agree >>>> on. >>>> >>>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:23 PM, John G. Heim wrote: >>>> >>>>> No, screen readers can be judged subjectively independent of the OS they >>>>> are >>>>> used for. For example, a subjective measurement might be a count of the >>>>> number of keystrokes it takes to complete certain tasks. Also, >>>>> consistency >>>>> can be a subjective measurment. Does the same keystroke move from one >>>>> input >>>>> field to the next? And finally, you can get an idea of the percentage of >>>>> inaccessible controls in operating system applications. In fact, you >>>>> could >>>>> even include accessibility of third party applications even if you have >>>>> to >>>>> download add-ons to make them accessible. After all, who cares where the >>>>> accessibility features come from as long as they work? >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, I'm not necessarily saying that my opinion is right. But your >>>>> contention that its impossible to compare jaws and voiceover is incorrect. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Scott Howell" <[email protected]> >>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:19 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> John, I think that is a very unfair statement. To say that VoiceOver is >>>>> not >>>>> up to the standard set by JAWS is inaccurate. That is like comparing >>>>> windows >>>>> and the Mac OS. Sure, they both are operating systems, but they are very >>>>> different and that holds true with VoiceOver as compared to JAWS, >>>>> Window-Eyes, and any screen reader running on windows or Linux for that >>>>> matter. They are all screen readers, like windows or SL share some >>>>> similarities, but VoiceOver and JAWS for windows are very different. >>>>> Therefore, the supposed standards of JAWS do not apply to VOiceOver and >>>>> therefore renders your statement inaccurate. >>>>> On Dec 1, 2009, at 5:10 PM, John G. Heim wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Several years ago, Microsoft began working on improvements to narrator >>>>>> that >>>>>> would make it a realistically usable screen reader. But the National >>>>>> Federation of the Blind asked them to stop. The reasoning was that if >>>>>> Microsoft improved narrator, it might drive Freedom Scientific and GW >>>>>> Micro >>>>>> out of business. They thought that narrator would never reach the >>>>>> quality >>>>>> of >>>>>> Jaws and window-eyes yet it might still be good enough to drive those >>>>>> products out of the market. >>>>>> >>>>>> Obviously, that decision was somewhat controversial at the time. I argued >>>>>> that it made no sense to think that narrator could be at once too crummy >>>>>> to >>>>>> be used and at the same time good enough to drive jFS and GWM out of >>>>>> business. I didn't anticipate the development of the other free screen >>>>>> readers, voiceover, nvda, and orca. But certainly, that's another point >>>>>> against the NFB position. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the other hand, I don't think I'd like to switch to voiceover or nvda >>>>>> full-time. They are not quite up to the standard set by jaws yet. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Lynn Schneider" <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 10:54 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I purchased my first Apple computer about three months ago. I will never >>>>>> forget the feeling of complete surprise and joy at being able to just >>>>>> turn >>>>>> the iMac on and get it talking within minutes. Microsoft is not to blame >>>>>> for not having default Windows access out of the box, blind people are to >>>>>> blame. As Mark said, thinking outside the box can get you into hot >>>>>> water. >>>>>> A few years ago on a blindness-related list, I made the cataclysmic >>>>>> mistake >>>>>> of expressing my wish that some day, windows would be accessible out of >>>>>> the >>>>>> box. You would not believe the hate mail I received from tons of blind >>>>>> people basically saying that I wanted a free lunch, I was ungrateful for >>>>>> all >>>>>> the hard work and research of the screen reader companies, etc. etc. >>>>>> Honestly, it was totally shocking to me that I would get such ire for >>>>>> simply >>>>>> suggesting that we ought to have access to something our sighted peers >>>>>> take >>>>>> for granted without having to pay thousands of dollars extra. But, >>>>>> being >>>>>> on >>>>>> this list and seeing all the other blind switchers out there, I feel at >>>>>> least a tiny bit vindicated, as blind people are starting to see the >>>>>> benefits of universal access. I really think it is the young blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> who are going to demand universal access, at least I hope so. They are >>>>>> the >>>>>> ones who are going to benefit most from being able to buy an iPhone or >>>>>> iPod >>>>>> Touch like their peers and just start using the thing, and they are >>>>>> hopefully going to demand more of that. With chips being so cheap now, >>>>>> there is absolutely no reason why universal access cannot be built right >>>>>> into things. The best thing we can all do is to spread the word far and >>>>>> wide about what Apple has been able to accomplish with their products and >>>>>> make them an example of what can be. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 9:27 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the discussion at >>>>>>> hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac computers >>>>>>> universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why >>>>>>> Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and the >>>>>>> technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it >>>>>>> brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a >>>>>>> mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without >>>>>>> sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would then be >>>>>>> forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose their >>>>>>> economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for tax >>>>>>> dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for what >>>>>>> it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the market >>>>>>> is because they have contracted with some state agencies and >>>>>>> government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense ineirectly. >>>>>>> I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays costing $8000 >>>>>>> to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, the biggest >>>>>>> majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population and baby >>>>>>> boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no school for >>>>>>> the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send their blind >>>>>>> kids off to a residential school, they would have to send them >>>>>>> Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars which they could >>>>>>> probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There are a handful of >>>>>>> us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, but that numberis >>>>>>> increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. Richie Gardenhire, >>>>>>> Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they >>>>>>> have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's why >>>>>>> I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and >>>>>>> secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, but >>>>>>> FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed >>>>>>> market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply stating >>>>>>> that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home electronics >>>>>>> ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any time soon if >>>>>>> ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they won't sell enough >>>>>>> of them to make it worth their while. There is a cell phone put out >>>>>>> by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen one and it's no big >>>>>>> deal. The speech is great, but there is no camera, digital screen, or >>>>>>> anything that might ad a bit of a price to the phone. It's built like >>>>>>> a brick, but it is over $500 and though the speech is clear, it's very >>>>>>> robotic. Tell me that's not ridiculous? I don't know that agencies >>>>>>> are responsible for this one, but the phone is so tailored to our >>>>>>> needs that somebody will buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people >>>>>>> were learning braille and speech software as they were dealing with >>>>>>> macular degeneration, and there was a big enough demand for it, things >>>>>>> might come down a bit. That's great about the scanner. I'd better >>>>>>> stop typing now as I am misspelling more things than I am typing >>>>>>> correctly and am about to throw this keyboard, though it's not at fault. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time >>>>>>>> again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has >>>>>>>> gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted >>>>>>>> community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended for >>>>>>>> use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr >>>>>>>> documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you had >>>>>>>> to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state agencies >>>>>>>> bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a scanner and to >>>>>>>> a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, text, and other >>>>>>>> document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the cost it was in the >>>>>>>> 1970's. The point here is that it found a marketable niche among the >>>>>>>> sighted community, and once they were mass-produced, prices started >>>>>>>> coming down and people could afford said scanners. While braille >>>>>>>> displays are another issue, there are companies who are working to >>>>>>>> make even displays more affordable and accepting to the universal >>>>>>>> design market. In the 1980's, Apple tried an experiment, using an >>>>>>>> ordinary, dot matrix printer, to produce braille. It wasn't the best >>>>>>>> quality braille, but it was an experiment that, had it been popular, >>>>>>>> might have flown. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you in a >>>>>>>> sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off of >>>>>>>> the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac and >>>>>>>> accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will likely not >>>>>>>> be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be able to make >>>>>>>> sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy >>>>>>>> and asking them if JFW works. We probably make up less than 10% of >>>>>>>> the population so it isn't going to happen. It would still be >>>>>>>> expensive, and that's why I needed the agency to buy it for me. Again >>>>>>>> don't get me wrong, in a perfect world that might happen, but we all >>>>>>>> know the world is far from perfect. I'm not trying to defend anybody >>>>>>>> necessarily, and I don't consider myself dependent because I need >>>>>>>> assistance from them. I got my own jobs, take care of myself, go >>>>>>>> where I need to go etc. A good organization helps people become >>>>>>>> independent. I agree that whenever possible, we should do for >>>>>>>> ourselves and not be too dependent on anybody, agencies included. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, >>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>> one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other things >>>>>>>>> and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor, and the >>>>>>>>> disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different subject line >>>>>>>>> from what was originally intended, and I apologize for that, but I >>>>>>>>> will say one more thing on this, and that is that I'm in favor of >>>>>>>>> universal design so that blind people can walk into any store and >>>>>>>>> purchase off-the-shelf software and get it working and we not be >>>>>>>>> forced to be co-dependent on state agencies to purchase our stuff. I >>>>>>>>> guess, in a way, I'm against state agencies for the reasons I stated >>>>>>>>> above. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Mark: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their >>>>>>>>> opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind >>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>> in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was hired >>>>>>>>> for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that I could >>>>>>>>> get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had graphics >>>>>>>>> for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of dollars >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> has costed. He is working as we speak since the company I work for >>>>>>>>> has changed software and everything we had done in the past regarding >>>>>>>>> the original software is now null and void. I could have not >>>>>>>>> afforded >>>>>>>>> a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars. I can say with certainty >>>>>>>>> that there are few if any companies that would provide any of these >>>>>>>>> services. Unfortunately many government funded agencies, including >>>>>>>>> the Oregon Commission for the blind do know little about Mac >>>>>>>>> accessibility as they have contracts with certain vendors, and, face >>>>>>>>> it,whether we like it or not, a majority of companies still use >>>>>>>>> Windows based software. My husband and I both decided on our own to >>>>>>>>> try the Mac, and though I've had some problems, I'm glad I did. I've >>>>>>>>> learned it without an instructor. We nearly lost our Commission last >>>>>>>>> summer so when I hear people talking about how we shouldn't have >>>>>>>>> government agencies such as this, I have to disagree though they do >>>>>>>>> have their problems. Yes, some people do rely on others to much, but >>>>>>>>> not all of us do. Like you, I grew up in the public school system in >>>>>>>>> a rural area. I was born blind also. I'll get off my soap box now. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I was >>>>>>>>>> born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was raised >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from state >>>>>>>>>> agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with >>>>>>>>>> minimal >>>>>>>>>> if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience with any >>>>>>>>>> agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24, when the >>>>>>>>>> Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course and I >>>>>>>>>> needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of their >>>>>>>>>> dorm, >>>>>>>>>> making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab flatly refused to >>>>>>>>>> support me and my music career in any way, and pressured me to go to >>>>>>>>>> the Carroll Center in the first place, then pressured me to get >>>>>>>>>> therapy and reform my ways when they made me homeless. I only >>>>>>>>>> started >>>>>>>>>> cautiously learning how to deal with the agencies in 2007, when it >>>>>>>>>> became clear that my failing hearing was going to force me out of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> transcription career I'd had for 13+ years. I learned Jaws and >>>>>>>>>> Windows essentially by myself, as I've always been good with tech. >>>>>>>>>> Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get along >>>>>>>>>> with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce at >>>>>>>>>> best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for the >>>>>>>>>> blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which >>>>>>>>>> hopefully >>>>>>>>>> will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the abolition >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> such systems. They do not foster independence of thinking, and tend >>>>>>>>>> to punish outside-the-box people, in my experience. I do realize >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> people blinded later in life may not adapt as fully as those born >>>>>>>>>> blind; I'm learning that as I lose my hearing, so I have the >>>>>>>>>> privilege >>>>>>>>>> of seeing both sides of the coin, but think about what that >>>>>>>>>> implies-- >>>>>>>>>> that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted by >>>>>>>>>> losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands of >>>>>>>>>> high- >>>>>>>>>> pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system seems to >>>>>>>>>> punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're pressured to >>>>>>>>>> conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think for >>>>>>>>>> yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff until >>>>>>>>>> last >>>>>>>>>> year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided, in the >>>>>>>>>> interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility teacher >>>>>>>>>> quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the immediate >>>>>>>>>> rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon what I and my >>>>>>>>>> dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's even more so; >>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>> that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel the loss. :) I >>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>> see how the agencies really have done me any good, other than in the >>>>>>>>>> purely material realm, and if I weren't as articulate as I am about >>>>>>>>>> stating my needs, and as forceful as I am about what I need, which >>>>>>>>>> most people are not, even that gain might be minimal, and even now >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> damage is significant. So, that's where my beef with the system(s) >>>>>>>>>> comes in; sorry if that makes it a personal grudge, but there you >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> then. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Mark BurningHawk Baxter >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 >>>>>>>>>> MSN: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> My home page: >>>>>>>>>> http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> 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>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe 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