I have discovered this morning, that the most important step in working with 
wired networking, is to connect the correct ethernet cable.  Not sure how I 
pugged the wrong one in, but I’ve found another cable that has brought the 
system back online.  This weekend I’ll try setting things up properly, but for 
now at least, I’m up and running.

Thanks again for all the help and I’ll check back in on the weekend. :)

Jeff

> On Sep 21, 2016, at 10:07 PM, Tim Kilburn <kilbu...@me.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi Jef,
> 
> OK.  It sounds like Bell may have some odd things going on with their 
> modem/router.  Scott and Jonathan may have had a point with respect to how 
> many machines that they are accepting through their device.  Jerks.  That 
> refers to Bell, not Scott or Jonathan :).  Let's do the following:
> 
> 1.  TC #1, set with DHCP and NAT.  In the status, it may report an error, but 
> you can tell the TC to ignore that error in Airport Utility.  Also, make sure 
> that the ethernet cable goes into the WAN port which is the one closest to 
> the USB port on your TC.
> 2.  Connect TC #2 to the hub like before, but make sure that TC #2 has the 
> ethernet going into its WAN port as well.
> 3.  Make sure that TC #2 is in Bridge mode.
> 4.  turn off the wireless broadcasting on the Bell if you can.
> 5.  Make sure that both TC's have the same wireless SSID, same security and 
> same password for the WiFi signal.  The actual TC configuration passwords are 
> immaterial.
> 
> Please eMail me the IP addresses for each device if you can.  That is, WAN 
> and LAN addresses as well as the router address of each of the Bell device, 
> TC #1 and TC #2.  In Airport Utility, under the Internet tab, you can find 
> the extra info I'm hoping for.  The WAN and LAN can usually be found on the 
> front page of the Airport Utility for each TC but the router info is found 
> under the Internet tab.
> 
> Hope things get worked out quick for you.
> 
> Later...
> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
> On Sep 21, 2016, at 18:25, Jeff Berwick <mailingli...@berwick.name 
> <mailto:mailingli...@berwick.name>> wrote:
> 
> So far, no joy!
> 
> I made the changes, but my network has completely crapped out on me.  As a 
> result, I’ve undone everything I did, but things are still not working.
> 
> It seems that computers connected to the hub which is connected to the 1st 
> Time Capsule are self-assigning ip addresses.  One is a Windows machine and 
> one is a MacBook Pro.  I can’t figure out how to convince them to get their 
> ip from the Time Capsule which is again set to  DHCP and NAT.  I’m fine with 
> the problems for now, I just need to get my home network up and running again 
> by tomorrow as I work from home.
> 
> I’ll try fiddling again on the weekend.  As it stands now, I’ve ben at this 
> for 4 hours and I’m frustrated.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Thx,
> Jef
> 
>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 3:16 PM, Scott Granados <sc...@qualityip.net 
>> <mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Another thing too, some providers like Comcast use your router to deliver 
>> their services.  Everywhere you see for example an Xfinity SSID that’s being 
>> broadcast, unknowingly by most, by your home comcast routers.  They sell 
>> WiFi access and use their customers networks to carry the traffic.  I do 
>> think they break off a separate channel structure but still if I want to be 
>> a gateway for Comcast they can pay me for it.
>> 
>> Great move turning that off.  I don’t know if Bell does such things.
>> 
>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 3:13 PM, Tim Kilburn <kilbu...@me.com 
>>> <mailto:kilbu...@me.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Jeff,
>>> 
>>> I prefer it that way as well.  That is, turn off the wireless broadcasting 
>>> of your ISP device.  Some devices don't play nice together when setting up 
>>> a roaming kind of design, which is essentially what you're doing.  The two 
>>> Time Capsules will play nice together.
>>> 
>>> Later...
>>> 
>>> Tim Kilburn
>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>> 
>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 13:06, Jeff Berwick <mailingli...@berwick.name 
>>> <mailto:mailingli...@berwick.name>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Perfect.  Yes, the Bell Router/modem broadcasts a wireless signal, but I 
>>> intend on turning that off.  I’m trying to keep my kids safe by routing 
>>> things through my home network where I can control access and DNS.
>>> 
>>> Jeff
>>> 
>>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 3:05 PM, Tim Kilburn <kilbu...@me.com 
>>>> <mailto:kilbu...@me.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Jeff,
>>>> 
>>>> They would be on the same network as the Bell modem/router device would 
>>>> provide the networking framework and the Internet translation.  Your Time 
>>>> Capsules would provide the wireless signal.  One extra question, do you 
>>>> know if your Bell device also broadcasts a wireless signal?
>>>> 
>>>> Later...
>>>> 
>>>> Tim Kilburn
>>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>>> 
>>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 13:02, Jeff Berwick <mailingli...@berwick.name 
>>>> <mailto:mailingli...@berwick.name>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> In this scenario, would the two Time Capsules be on the same network, or 
>>>> would they be on separate networks?  Just wondering if devices on each 
>>>> will be able to see each other.
>>>> 
>>>> Thx,
>>>> Jeff
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 2:54 PM, Scott Granados <sc...@qualityip.net 
>>>>> <mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Here’s how i would address this issue, Tim and John and anyone else 
>>>>> please input your ideas.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 1. I would take the first time capsule out of router mode and put also in 
>>>>> to bridge mode.
>>>>> 2. I would wire your first time capsule right to your cable modem.
>>>>> 3. I would take the second time capsule and also wire to the modem, do 
>>>>> not use the time capsule for this if you can for simplicity.
>>>>> 
>>>>> At this point, your cable modem which we should also call a router to be 
>>>>> correct is doing the NAT translation and routing work.  Each timecapsule 
>>>>> will be acting as an access point only.  Each should receive a 192 
>>>>> address in this configuration and not have DHCP enabled at all. This will 
>>>>> solve the double NAT problem with out calling the carrier and also 
>>>>> simplify your access point side.
>>>>> 
>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Did you recently have your modem replaced?  Sounds like they swapped out 
>>>>> a modem with a router and didn’t tell you the environment was changing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 2:49 PM, Jeff Berwick <mailingli...@berwick.name 
>>>>>> <mailto:mailingli...@berwick.name>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The 1st Time Capsule is:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ip: 192.168.2.10 and lan 10.0.2.1
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The 2nd Time Capsule is:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> IP: 10.0.2.4 and LAN: same (10.0.2.4)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 2:45 PM, Scott Granados <sc...@qualityip.net 
>>>>>>> <mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Bam, Tim scores!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Your cable modem is in NAT mode hence the double NAT.  SO your cable 
>>>>>>> modem is NAT translating the packets from a real IP on the outside to 
>>>>>>> an inside IP from the 192 space.  What IP is on the other inside time 
>>>>>>> capsule if you don’t mind?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 2:42 PM, Jeff Berwick <mailingli...@berwick.name 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:mailingli...@berwick.name>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The modem reports an ip address of 192.168.2.1.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 2:34 PM, Tim Kilburn <kilbu...@me.com 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:kilbu...@me.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jeff,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> What IP does your first TC report for the WAN and LAN when in the 
>>>>>>>>> Airport Utility?  This can help to determine whether your Bell modem 
>>>>>>>>> is in Bridge mode or not.  I suspect that it is not as most ISP's 
>>>>>>>>> don't put their devices in Bridge mode unless you specifically ask 
>>>>>>>>> them to.
>>>>>>>>> Later...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Tim Kilburn
>>>>>>>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 12:29, Jeff Berwick <mailingli...@berwick.name 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:mailingli...@berwick.name>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Well, you’re losing me a bit, but this is the setup:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Cable modem connects to first time Capsule via ethernet,
>>>>>>>>> 1st Time Capsule connects to hub via ethernet,
>>>>>>>>> Hub connects to 2nd Time Capsule via ethernet.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> So, there is only one ethernet connection to the modem, but it also 
>>>>>>>>> connects to my Fibe TV.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The two Time Capsules both broadcast a wireless signal on the same 
>>>>>>>>> SSID; however, the 1st Time Capsule is set to DHCP and NAT while the 
>>>>>>>>> 2nd is set to Bridge mode.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This was all working up until a couple weeks ago, but now I get 
>>>>>>>>> intermittent internet outages on the 2nd Time Capsule.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Also, the first Time Capsule has the Double NAT message when looking 
>>>>>>>>> at its status, although both Time Capsules report to be working 
>>>>>>>>> normally.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 2:02 PM, Scott Granados <sc...@qualityip.net 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> John, I think you’re on to something here.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Let me make sure I have the wiring correct.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Jeff starts out with a cable modem which I think John is right is 
>>>>>>>>>> probably locked to one IP and probably also bound by Mac address.
>>>>>>>>>> From the cable modem we have a cable attaching to an airport time 
>>>>>>>>>> capsule set up to receive a DHCP address on the wan side and hand 
>>>>>>>>>> out addresses inside from a NAT translated block.  Probably 10.x 
>>>>>>>>>> space if memory serves.
>>>>>>>>>>      Where I’m not sure is the second hub and time capsule 
>>>>>>>>>> connection.  Does the cable modem attach to the hub and you’re 
>>>>>>>>>> trying to have each time capsule reach the cable modem directly 
>>>>>>>>>> through the hub or is the hub attached to a LAN port on the time 
>>>>>>>>>> capsule inside ports and then the other time capsule is attached to 
>>>>>>>>>> that internal hub segment.  Makes a big difference which way.
>>>>>>>>>>      If Jeff is trying to grab 2 outside addresses by sharing the 
>>>>>>>>>> port on the cable modem I think John nailed it.  You can only do one 
>>>>>>>>>> at a time with out adding a second IP usually for an additional fee.
>>>>>>>>>>      If the timecapsule is attached inside or behind the NAT head 
>>>>>>>>>> end you should set in bridge mode with the same SSID (or different 
>>>>>>>>>> for testing).  In this mode the second inside time capsule should be 
>>>>>>>>>> an access point only.  There should be no NAT.  You would have the 
>>>>>>>>>> airport receive it’s inside address from the nat head end and also 
>>>>>>>>>> not hand out any of it’s own addresses.  It should act as a pass 
>>>>>>>>>> through.  Does that make sense?
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Jonathan C. Cohn <jon.c.c...@gmail.com 
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:jon.c.c...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Does your service provider allow you to have multiple IP computers 
>>>>>>>>>>> on the network?  Perhaps your ISP only will DHCP for one address 
>>>>>>>>>>> within your house, Cox used to do that for me. If that is the case 
>>>>>>>>>>> and then not using public IP address space then you will not be 
>>>>>>>>>>> able to get your configuration to work properly.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan Cohn 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 21, 2016, at 12:38 PM, Jeff Berwick 
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailingli...@berwick.name <mailto:mailingli...@berwick.name>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi there,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I know just enough about this stuff to get my 
>>>>>>>>>>>> network somewhat working and be a little dangerous.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I use Bell services in Canada and I have a modem supplied by them 
>>>>>>>>>>>> which is the first touch point in the house.  The ethernet cables 
>>>>>>>>>>>> then connect to a Time Capsule set to DHCP and NET, more ethernet 
>>>>>>>>>>>> cables through a hub and then to another Time Capsule set to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bridge mode.  
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> When I look at the status table in Airport Utility for the first 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Time Capsule, I get the Double NET error; however, when I switch 
>>>>>>>>>>>> that Time Capsule to Bridge Mode my network stops working.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Time Capsules are set to Create a network and share the same 
>>>>>>>>>>>> SSID name/password.  One Time Capsule serves one half of my house, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the other serves the second half.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> So, do you have any suggestions on how I can fix this?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I can’t figure out if my Bell modem (Home Hub 2000) is in Bridge 
>>>>>>>>>>>> mode itself, although I doubt it.  I can’t find any settings in 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the firmware to allow me to do so.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tia,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 19, 2016, at 7:32 PM, Tim Kilburn <kilbu...@me.com 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:kilbu...@me.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott is spot on, unless your ISP unit is configured to Bridge 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mode as in my case.  So, with the ISP router in Bridge mode, the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Airport Extreme handles all the DHCP and Firewall stuff.  Any 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other devices are either set to extend or as a roaming extension 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> depending on how you have things set up.  Anything that is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> connected to your ISP router with an ethernet cable can be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> configured to the same SSID, thus roaming kinds of interaction 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> happens.  Devices that connect wirelessly, normally extend the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> network.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you go into Airport Utility and check on the Status of your 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Time Capsules, you may be able to determine the issue.  So, in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> AU, access the Time Capsule, then interact with the Scroll area, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there should be a Status table there that should note the issue.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I expect that it is likely a double NAT issue which Scott's 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggestion will fix.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Later...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim Kilburn
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 19, 2016, at 17:17, Scott Granados <sc...@qualityip.net 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> BY time capsule I assume you mean airport router?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Here’s how it should be set up, you should have your ISP router 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the head end as you do now.  Next, you should set the airports 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in to bridging mode or as access points so you’re not using them 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to route.  Set the addresses assignment to dhcp for the local 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> address for each so your main router can hand them addresses.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The big important part here is you make sure routing is disabled 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and they are transmitting your routers network and not forming 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their own.  Let me know if that helps any.  If you detail a bit 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more how things are connected I will be glad to be much more 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> specific.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 19, 2016, at 7:06 PM, Jeff Berwick 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailingli...@berwick.name <mailto:mailingli...@berwick.name>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Today is my day for messages :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have two Time Capsules on my home network and one router from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my internet provider.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the extras bar, it says I have 4 of 4 bars, but my son says 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that they are greyed out and that they have an exclamation mark. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  I can ping through my network all the way to the ISP’s modem, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but can’t get anything outside my home through ping or on the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> internet.  If I move closer to my older Time Capsule, everything 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is fine; however, if I am using my newer Time Capsule, this is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when I get the problems.  So, I am pretty sure it is something 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with my newer Time Capsule.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an intermittent problem.  Any networkers out there have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any ideas on how I can test/fix this issue?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thx,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
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>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>>>>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, 
>>>>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact 
>>>>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list 
>>>>>>>>> itself.
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach 
>>>>>>>>> mark at:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com> and your owner is 
>>>>>>>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
>>>>>>>>> --- 
>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
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>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, 
>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>>>>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, 
>>>>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact 
>>>>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list 
>>>>>>>>> itself.
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach 
>>>>>>>>> mark at:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com> and your owner is 
>>>>>>>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
>>>>>>>>> --- 
>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, 
>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>>>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, 
>>>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact 
>>>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list 
>>>>>>>> itself.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach 
>>>>>>>> mark at:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com> and your owner is 
>>>>>>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
>>>>>>>> --- 
>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, 
>>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact 
>>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list 
>>>>>>> itself.
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark 
>>>>>>> at:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com> and your owner is 
>>>>>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
>>>>>>> --- 
>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
>>>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
>>>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark 
>>>>>> at:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com> and your owner is 
>>>>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>>>>>>  
>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
>>>>>> --- 
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>>>  
>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
>>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
>>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>>>  
>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark 
>>>>> at:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com 
>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com> and your owner is Cara 
>>>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>>>>>  
>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
>>>>> --- 
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>>  
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>>  
>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark 
>>>> at:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com 
>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com> and your owner is Cara 
>>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>>>>  
>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
>>>> --- 
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>>  
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>>  
>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark 
>>>> at:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com 
>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com> and your owner is Cara 
>>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>>>>  
>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
>>>> --- 
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>>  
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>  
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark 
>>> at:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com 
>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com> and your owner is Cara 
>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>>>  
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>>  
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>  
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark 
>>> at:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com 
>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com> and your owner is Cara 
>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>>>  
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>>  
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>  
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark 
>> at:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com 
>> <mailto:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com> and your owner is Cara 
>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>>  
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
> 
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
> macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com> and your owner is Cara 
> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
> 
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
> macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
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