Yes, I think there must always be a place for this kind of dialogue. I'm only
two weeks in with my plain old MacBook, not even a pro, but find it far better
than I expected prior to purchase. I do have Windows 7 on a VM on here as well
and use it for Kurzweil 1000 and some chat sites that don't have Mac apps yet.
I'm trying the beta of IE9 so I really can compair the latest with the latest,
and will no doubt put Firefox on Windows for those times when Webvisum is
needed. This kind of debate will hopefully teach me new things about both
systems. They are different and have different pros and cons, but I personally
much prefer the Mac environment. It just feels friendlier and more intuitive,
and it is miles faster, though I'm sure Windows would be faster if not on a VM!
Cheers
Dave
On 11 Oct 2010, at 15:03, Scott Ford wrote:
Hi Neal,
That was not what I was attempting to point out. I am too
trying to figure things out. I am constantly reevaluating my technology. For
me though, I can operate in both worlds with my Mac book pro on a nice form
factor. I would love the opportunity to try out the technology that you
mentioned. I am considering a net book in fact. I am really enjoying this
dialog, great work Neal.
Sincerely,
Scott
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Neil Barnfather - TalkNav
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 9:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
Scott,
I have two PC laptop's, the first is a Toshiba R600, the lightest laptop in the
World at just 735g, sorry none metric folk, it's not a net book, and has full
processor and 3Gb of RAM etc.
it has a 12in screen and is extraordinarily light, you pick it up and think
either it's a toy or that they forgot to put the components in it. that's why
though it holds the records as the lightest laptop in the World.
My Sony VAIO big brother is solid, well built and as light in weight as the
comparative Mac product.
but please, again, I do not wish to make this a this is better argument, really
the point was to educate myself if there was a better way of using just the
keyboard.
thus far I have found out two key things, firstly how to use Safari better with
the tab key, in effect making it auto enter certain types of forms...
also I have found that I can use standard OSx keyboard commands which are
shorter than the VO comparative.
these two things alone make my thinking more level, which was the purpose of
asking the question.
I'm not yet of the opinion that its more efficient, but I'm working on it.
Twitter @neilbarnfather
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator
TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible
phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Scott Ford
Sent: 11 October 2010 14:12
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
Hi Neil,
I am not sure where I got John from. I do have to say this for
the Mac. I use a Mac book pro for my day to day work. This includes working
with clients in both Mac osx and Windows. I have found that the power and
performance in the Mac book pro to be nothing short of great. I also have a
very nice dell that is equal to the Mac in just about every way. Where it
really falls short is in the form factor. My dell is just about twice as thick
and half again as heavy. I can pop the Mac and it’s power supply in my book
bag and it is much thinner than any book that I need to carry. This may be a
minor thing to most, however I also carry my BN apex around as well. These
devices really add up to a lot of weight quickly. Just a bit more food for
thought.
Sincerely,
Scott
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Neil Barnfather - TalkNav
Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 3:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
Scott,
that's pretty much my beef, the issue for me comes down to productivity, that
alone, not price, not other, just productivity.
I'm still hopeful, and wish to become a switcher, not for peer pressure, not
for anything other than stability of the screen reader... having said this, you
never know, the folks at FS may one day decide to do the right thing and
completely re-write JAWS from the ground up, making it more stable.
Twitter @neilbarnfather
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator
TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible
phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Scott Ford
Sent: 10 October 2010 21:35
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
Hi John,
I was just mentioning on the list the other day, that I frequently
find myself needing to boot into windows on my Mac to complete work because the
application does not exist or thedoes not work as well as on the PC. I truly
feel that the Mac software is making leaps and great strides with every new
release, however looking at the two platforms critically I feel the Mac is just
not quite there. I am willing to bet that within the next year this will not
be the case. The switchers are growing by the day. The other little option
not found on the pc is the fact that one can boot into windows or run vm ware
fusion to access windows. On their Mac. I am an Adaptive Technology
specialist, every month I am getting more and more requests about the Mac. The
truth is that many people dislike the fact that one must use many more keys
than on the pc, however we are seeing that Apple is addressing this with each
subsequent release as well. For example the quick nav and the magic track pad
gestures for Voice over. I guess what I am attempting to say is that I feel
the answer is not a cut and dried one. There are positives and negatives on
both sides of the issue. The bottom line is that looking at a pure
productivity stand point the pc would have it hands down right now. This will
continue to change with Apples continued commitment to voice over and the
adaptive technology that it continues to incorporate in the OS. I hope that
this helps.
Sincerely,
Scott
On Oct 10, 2010, at 2:50 PM, Neil Barnfather - TalkNav wrote:
Carolyn,
thank you, not a soap box, your comments are echoed by many, and I too do not
wish to continue to pay for JAWS where not needed.
but, firstly, I am not comparing apples and oranges, the single finger
navigation of a PC is not thanks to Freedom Scientific nor JAWS etc, its
Microsoft and Windows, all there, in the box on day one.
Apple have been in this game for just as long as MS and the sighted Mac user
can use their Mac in this way.
All I want is that level playing field.
Many are suggesting Quick Nav, sure this helps, but it is still beyond what the
sighted Mac keyboard user needs to do.
Again, please let's not turn this into a cost argument, you cannot say that
Voice Over is better or fine or acceptable just because it costs nothing, sure
there's an argument to be had there, but it's not this one, this conversation I
would ask to have nothing to do with cost.
its so very easy to turn this into a well Freedom Scientific and other
accessibility companies charge so very much, and they do, rightly or wrongly,
and therefore Apple is better. this is a conversation about one persons needs
on a purely which solution works better, and can I get the Apple approach to
work for me, with the benefit and wizdom of the folk on this list.
I have already learned something new about Quick Nav, and that is that you can
using down and left / right respecively initiate interact mode on / off. this
helps a lot.
Twitter @neilbarnfather
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator
TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your accessible
phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]]on Behalf Of Carolyn
Sent: 10 October 2010 19:30
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
Hi Neil and others:
I have an interesting prospective, having worked with a Mac for almost a year,
and only made the switch semi-successfully. Further, I'm not a genius, a tech
expert, or even a wizzard. I'm just a computer user who is fascinated by what
I can achieve with the technology and like to use it for my daily functioning.
Having said these things, I've never been one to accomplish tasks with JAWS
using one finger. That to me is a big stretch. Unless, of course you are a
wizzard:).
Secondly, you are comparing Apples with Oranges here. Two totally different
operating systems, two totally different ways of doing things. Microsoft has
been doing their thing including JAWS since the 80's or at least the early 90's
If you're bent on being a finger wizzard, ok, great for you. I also find
myself frustrated by some of the fingering requirements of the OS with
Voiceover. It's far from perfect. But, to expect the same level of comfort
from a system that is a standard, out-of-the-box system is putting the bar too
high for a company that is finally trying to level the playingfield for us.
Perhaps I'm on the defensive because I've made a big investment in time and
energy to get as far as I have on the MAC. But, I did so knowing this field
hasn't been thoroughly plowed. I wanted to have an option other than paying
Freedom Scientific another 900 to get JAWS up-to-date. Which meant no new
computer for at least a couple more years. So, I requested a Mac as a
Christmas present, and I'm doing my best to make this an option for me and
others who, like me, don't think we should have to pay more to get less.
Now, if I had the PC down to one-finger use, as you say you have, perhaps I'd
be telling a different story. For now, I'm pretty happy to learn and grow into
a system as it grows and developes, rather than forking out another thousand to
line the pockets of specialty providers.
End of soapbox. Thanks for reading.
Carolyn
----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 11:02 AM
Subject: Can keyboard only navigation ever be...
Dear All,
Many of you will have seen me around before on the various lists so no need
for introductions, I've been a PC user now for in excess of 20 years, and
have attempted to make the switch to Mac now 3 times without success.
The first point I want to make is that this is not for lack of desire upon
my behalf, rather it is my hope that I am simply missing an essential piece
of the puzzle. this missing part though appears, to me at least, to be the
key, the magic link between making a successful jump or not.
I've heard all the usual shpeal about, it's not like a PC, so you cannot
think of it like that, put everything you've ever learned about screen
readers aside and think differently or a fresh, it's just the learning
curve, stick with it and you'll get there...
All of which I've tried and failed at... and when I asked an Apple Genius to
watch over me in a store to analyse where I was going wrong, his response, I
don't understand, you've mastered OSx, it has to be Voice Over...
So here it is, wide open for you, the cream of the switching community to
hopefully answer once and for all.
In an e-mail to Apple's illusive Accessibility team, I once commented that
if you took 2 PC users, one sighted and one not, removed the mouse from the
sighted user, that the 2 PC users would both use their computers in the same
way. i.e. that the key strokes / commands are all the same.
However, get 2 Mac users, one sighted one not, remove the mouse from the
sighted user, the 2 users both use the keyboard differently.
This thus forcing the Mac Voice Over user to learn the screen reader either
before, or alongside, the actual computer and the OS itself.
This of course not being so, from my perspective anyhow, on the PC, where
both users, keyboard exclusive or not, both use the machine in the same way.
My biggest hurdle to date is the keyboard commands and their implementation
on the Mac, it's not that they are different, as I can live with that, it's
the same as buying a new HiFi system, the buttons are in different places
and of a different design.
What I cannot seem to get over is that with a PC, 95% of what I do is one
handed and in 95% of those instances can be achieved with one finger.
leaving my left hand free to handle papers, telephones etc, etc.
comparatively, with Voice Over and the Mac, I am finding that I have to use
both hands for the most basic level of navigation, and also that many
commands are as a minimal 3 keys to implement.
Many have suggested work around such as the Magic Track Pad, indeed, this
would in effect make the Mac behave similarly to the iPhone, iPod Touch, and
iPad, all 3 of which I own.
However, one cannot get over the fact that this detracts from productivity,
or on the surface of it seems to, this being brought about by the user
moving their hand(s) from the keyboard to the track pad and back again.
*Note* I understand that Mac Book's have the track pad built in, but it's
still relocating your hands from one input device to another and back again.
So here's the question which really appears to be the initial clincher for
me, is it possible to use a Mac with essentially one hand and even more
importantly one finger for most commands and navigation.
I would say, to be fair, that' it's the navigation with one hand or one
finger that is the most important thing. all of JAWS commands require two
fingers or more, but it's the navigation that I just cannot get myself
passed. On my PC using JAWS virtually everything I'm doing is one fingered.
So, is this possible on the Mac...? the caveat to this should be, that I do
not see the point of spending countless hours re-allocating or arranging
existing commands / navigation commands. It seems to me that Voice Over's
biggest hurdle is the Voice Over command keys, Control + Options key, please
forgive me if I missed up Control and Command.
Please no-one, this is not a that's JAWS this is Voice Over question, this
is a... Can I use Voice Over and the Mac with one hand or better still one
finger for navigation of the Mac itself?
Setting the record straight at the get go, this is not an Apple slating, I
wish to make the switch, but it has to be because it's as easy or easier,
the fact that Voice Over is more stable is a factor, but not a huge one.
I do not buy all the security hype, nor the OS enhancements or stability
front. Yes Voice Over is more stable than JAWS / Window Eyes, but
principally because it is part of the operating platform, and not because
its superior or that Mac OSx is.
This statement about operating platforms may have held some degree of water
back in the days gone by, but with Windows 7, and a decent PC specification,
one can get as much performance and stability out of a PC as a Mac.
moreover, in terms of security, I've never known anyone I know who has a
brain using a PC to get a virus, the problem is that the PC world is where
the masses are, and many of those masses are nits, and they do stupid
things... when the PC pops up asking if they wish to install and download a
virus to delete all their data, they um, then ah, and then click OK. well
that's stupidity and not Windows being vulnerable.
*Note* I do accept that if you introduce JAWS or Window Eyes to a PC that
this can affect OS performance and stability. Indeed, my technical support
staff have many a time commented, how to watch an amazing machine, filled
with the latest technology, working like a dream turn to treacle, install
JAWS.
this is true, and is a significant factor to me wishing to jump ship, of
course if FS did what Microsoft did with Windows 7, i.e. dropped the whole
program and started a fresh, I believe that JAWS could seriously give Voice
Over a run for its money on the stability front. as it happens this move is
highly unlikely.
So there it is folks, what do you Apple wizards think?
best regards.
Twitter @neilbarnfather
Neil Barnfather
Talks List Administrator
TalkNav is a Nuance, Code Factory and Sendero dealer, for all your
accessible phone, PDA and GPS related enquiries visit www.talknav.com
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