I *strongly disagree. The easiest way to work a sudoku is with braille. Why on earth would you cut that out? Donna On Feb 10, 2011, at 9:57 PM, Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. wrote:
> Hello, > > I do not think braille should be considered just yet when making a sudoku app. > > Are these apps to be run on a mac, or iPhone? > > Either way I see no need to read grids at all times, only when the player > makes a region query as I suggested. > > I bet some developer out there may be able to retrofit their existing app > with VoiceOver features you may furnish. Try it I say, or you'll never know > how far the developers are willing to go. > > Antonio Guimaraes > > > On Feb 10, 2011, at 7:35 PM, Scott Howell wrote: > >> Woe, this all sounds good Antonio; however, we're talking about modifying an >> existing game, not reinventing one. The various gestures would require a >> substantial amount of recoding even if it would be possible. What your >> talking about may even be beyond VO's abilities at this point. I really need >> to go study up on Sudoku because I have an interest, but not enough >> knowledge to completely understand all the aspects of the board. However, >> setting aside Braille for the minute, we need to consider what is possible >> without rewriting the entire interface. >> Not trying to pea on your parade, but perhaps looking at this from the >> perspective of what is instead of what we wish could be. DOes that make >> sense? >> I just think if we approach the developer with all of these ideas of >> changing the interface, he bay balk at the idea. Do you feel there is >> another approach? Do you think the coordinates are necessary? Just trying to >> think through this. >> >> Scott >> >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 10, 2011, at 6:05 PM, Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. wrote: >> >>> Brian, >>> >>> Sudoku is and has been an interest of mine for about 4 years, and when I >>> play I use a braille note-taker. >>> >>> I've used a braille lite 40, and now use a braille sense. I prefer the 40 >>> cell display and set up of the braille lite, but can use the sense just as >>> well. >>> >>> The thoughts on this are as follows: >>> >>> 1. Developers for an accessible game will need to consider board >>> enquiries. How do I ask that the information I want to have be read to me. >>> >>> This is where one can get really creative with gestures, but there needs to >>> be a way to read a column, a row, and a square, as well as a way to >>> navigate quicly through the board. >>> >>> So a right, left, up, or down flick of a single finger will move you one >>> square in that direction. >>> >>> A two finger swipe in any direction will trigger a query on the row or >>> column in question. It is a bit beyond me why a player would ask for a >>> column or row to be read from right to left, or bottom to top, but we'll >>> leave this one alone since it gives players more navigational options >>> available to them. >>> >>> A double tap on the last read spot will activate it for editing, entry. >>> >>> A two finger double tap on any spot will trigger a query on that 3 by 3 >>> grid, top left to bottom right. >>> >>> There may be ways to ask the board what numbers are missing from a region, >>> but I think this should be a player's job and thought process when solving >>> the puzzle. >>> >>> One other issue is how fast you want your numbers read to you. I might like >>> to have a .75 second interval between each number spoken, while someone >>> else can go at .4 seconds, and another person might prefer a 1 second pause. >>> >>> this is probably not hard to implement into a settings option that users >>> would change. >>> >>> 2. I do have some thoughts about filling out the grid. >>> >>> A. Double tap on an empty or penciled in spot in which to enter a new >>> number. >>> >>> B. Once the edit field comes up you would have a phone stile pat 1 through >>> 9 that you could double tap to enter your answer. >>> >>> C. Another way to enter your choice once the edit comes up will be to tap >>> as many times as the number you wish to input. After you stop tapping, say >>> a second after you stop tapping, the software would confirm your entry. It >>> might say something like >>> >>> Enter a 2? Double tap for yes, tripple tap for no. >>> >>> I realize this is more cumbersome but could be consider. Option B is >>> admittedly the easiest. >>> >>> Hope these suggestions help. >>> >>> Antonio Guimaraes >>> >>> On Feb 9, 2011, at 8:50 PM, Bryan Jones wrote: >>> >>>> Greetings All, >>>> >>>> For those Sudoku players on the list, I'd like to pick your brains a bit. >>>> I've been evaluating IOS Sudoku Apps (more details at the bottom of this >>>> email) and have found a good one whose developer is very receptive to >>>> making the App accessible and would like some input from the List as to >>>> how to best handle the Sudoku Grid. Again, I don't consider myself to be a >>>> very creative thinker in this kind of task so I'm hoping some of you can >>>> throw out some good ideas. >>>> >>>> As you probably know, the standard Sudoku grid consists of 9x9 squares, >>>> subdivided into 9 smaller 3x3 squares. How do you think VO could best tell >>>> us about these squares? Do you want to hear coordinates as in Chess-wise >>>> (A1 to H8)? Would you rather hear each 3x3 grid identified uniquely? How >>>> would you expect to hear status of pencil marks? Most of these Apps have a >>>> separate Number Pad that you use to select the number you want to place on >>>> the Grid. Would you expect to first select the number and then select the >>>> destination square, or would it make more sense to select the square first >>>> and then tap the number pad? Would you want to hear entire rows and >>>> columns read? >>>> >>>> That is the end of the questions for now, but if you're interested in more >>>> info, here are some more details regarding my evaluations and these two >>>> Apps. I've been evaluating the various free Sudoku Apps and am of course >>>> running into the same issue we had with chess prior to Chess-wise being >>>> updated; that is, the Sudoku Grid is inaccessible even if the rest of the >>>> game has been properly labeled for VO. While I found one app, "Tap Sudoku" >>>> that has a semi-accessible grid, the rest of the App needs lots of work. >>>> I've been unsuccessful in my attempts to contact the Developer of Tap >>>> Sudoku and, in fact, the developer website appears to be just a marketing >>>> site. >>>> >>>> Prior to starting my search I had asked Marcel Nijman if he was interested >>>> in developing an accessible Sudoku App, since he has been so good to work >>>> with through the process of making his other Apps accessible. Marcel >>>> respectfully declined saying he wanted to focus on upgrading his current >>>> group of Apps. He did however suggest trying the "Sudoku Tablet" App as he >>>> said it looks like a well-designed App. I've tested "Sudoku Tablet" for >>>> the iPad and it's sister App, "iSudoku" for all IOS devices. While their >>>> grids are not accessible, they both have excellent labeling and navigation >>>> for VO. I contacted the Developer, Wolfgang Tumler, and like Marcel, he is >>>> very receptive to the idea of making these two Apps fully accessible. In >>>> fact, between emails this morning and afternoon Wolfgang tells me he's >>>> already added labels to the Number Pad and has begun planning how to best >>>> number the Grid and to account for pencil marks, etc on the Grid. He is >>>> reviewing the various IOS accessibility programming resources we've been >>>> handing out, and he is waiting to hear our ideas before fully implementing >>>> the accessible Grid. >>>> >>>> Link to Sudoku Tablet in the US App Store (for ipads only; Current >>>> languages: English, Spanish, German): >>>> http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/sudoku-tablet/id362562850?mt=8 >>>> >>>> Link to iSudoku Lite in the US App Store (for all IOS devices; Current >>>> languages: English, German, French): >>>> http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/isudoku-light/id287792786?mt=8 >>>> >>>> My written evaluation of Sudoku Tablet: >>>> :BEGIN VO accessibility notes for Sudoku Tablet 2.0.2. >>>> The following information applies to the free version of Sudoku Tablet >>>> 2.0.2, English language, running on 3G iPad 64GB. with IOS 4.2.1. >>>> Highlights: >>>> Highlight 1. The Grid is completely inaccessible to VoiceOver, and there >>>> is no accessible alternate method to navigate the grid. >>>> Highlight 2. The Number Pad is completely inaccessible to VoiceOver, and >>>> there is no accessible alternative method to navigate the number pad. >>>> Highlight 3: Almost all of the App's buttons and controls appear to be >>>> properly and thoroughly labeled. >>>> Highlight 4. With the exception of the grid and number pad, the app can be >>>> easily navigated with VO via both swipes and fingertip searching. >>>> Highlight 5: The paid version of Sudoku Tablet includes 5 difficulty >>>> levels, 4 styles of play and the ability to save games in progress. >>>> >>>> Here is an overview of the User interface elements as read by VO. Most of >>>> the buttons are correctly labeled and self-explanatory. The support >>>> website has an excellent and accessible description of the game's various >>>> elements. Here I will give a few details of each button and some info on >>>> it's accessibility. The main screen consists of the following elements >>>> listed in order when swiping right from the top left corner: >>>> 1, A button properly labelled "Menu." I'll describe this in detail below. >>>> 2. A button properly labeled "Restart." This simply asks you if you'd like >>>> to restart your current game. >>>> 3. A button properly labeled "Settings." This presents an accessible and >>>> well-described popup menu of six switch buttons to adjust a few features. >>>> 4. A button labeled "Purchase Tag." This button takes you to the In-App >>>> Purchase screen asking if you'd like to purchase the Unlimited version of >>>> Sudoku Tablet for US $2.99. I did not make the purchase at this time, so I >>>> don't know if the final step(s) of making the purchase are fully >>>> accessible, but all steps up to this point were fully accessible and well >>>> described.. >>>> >>>> Here are more details of the Menu button and the game interface. >>>> Double-tapping the Menu button takes you to an accessible screen where you >>>> can select the version of the game you would like to play, either >>>> Traditional Sudoku, Sudoku X, Sudoku Newspaper, Sudoku Plus or Sudoku >>>> Samurai. There is also a button on this screen which will take you back to >>>> your current game. When you double-tap one of the game buttons you are >>>> presented with a fully accessible pick list to choose your preferred level >>>> of difficulty: Simple, Easy or Normal. VO then asks you to wait while the >>>> game is being generated, and you are then presented with the inaccessible >>>> Grid and Number Pad to play the game. While those two critical elements >>>> are not accessible, it is important to note that several important >>>> controls on this screen are already fully accessible: The timer, the pause >>>> / play button, the Pencil button, the Hint button and the Undo button. >>>> :END VO accessibility notes for Sudoku Tablet 2.0.2. >>>> >>>> TIA for any thoughts and suggestions, >>>> Bryan >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "VIPhone" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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