YOu want to talk inaccessibility? Some of you may not know this program but , like an idiot in 1994, I got mega dots because I did not want to use word, iOS has nothing on that program! But I will stifle my talk for now before I get the boot from this board. On 2013-02-17, at 1:58 PM, Devin Prater <[email protected]> wrote:
> Oh I agree! I can remember, from a few years ago, a conversation I had with a > new assistant-teacher at the school for the blind that I attend. It was about > spreadsheets and things like that. He wanted to know if I could access them > on my braille note. Of course, that can't be done, and he was surprised by > it, I think. And that made me stop and think about how truly locked in we are > on those systems. If you wanted to play .ogg files on your braille note, too > bad! Humanware isn't too fond of open formats. Nope, you can't install an app > to fix that, or to even open .ogg files. You can't install codecs or anything > to allow the "media player" to play it. You'll have to use a computer to > convert the file to mp3 and all that wonderful stuff. There are countless > other things that the Braille note locks you out of, but that's just one of > many. That's why when people start whining about how iOs is so locked down, I > think "uh, you haven't seen anything until you look at the blindness specific > products". And because the blindy products can only be improved by the > makers, they are very out of date. The braille plus 18 did it slightly > better, but until they get all their bugs fixed, and update to android 4.2, > they'll still be out-of-date. And don't get me started on the screen readers. > When I got my first computer, a Dell laptop, I thought Window-eyes was so > amazing and cool. Now though, we at our school rarely even use it. Now,we > mostly use flaws, and even though I've told people time and time again that > NVDA is good if you'll learn to use it, they still stick with the shark. The > latest version implemented Vocalizer voices, which were already used in NVDA > months earlier, and in Apple products years earlier. And even those voices > aren't as good as Apple's in my opinion. The only thing I might miss from the > windows world is Dectalk, but the Macintalk voices like Ralph and such are > very close to Dectalk, so I'm not complaining. That's another thing I love > about Apple. They rarely throw things away, they just improve upon things. I > am currently using the Zarvox voice, and do love it, I use it sometimes when > I have a headache and want a smooth voice. That's another thing. With many of > the note takers, you can only use Eloquence. Personally, Eloquence has never > been that remarkable to me. Its good, I suppose, but I don't see much > amazingness in it besides supporting many languages, which eSpeak completely > blows it away there, Vocalizer does too. Now though, some notetakers are > switching to Ivona, which is a little better, but I'd prefer seroproc over > that, at least from the demos and the Bushomatic thing, I could never get the > live demo bar to work. So, I think that if notetaker companies would just > make or use better operating systems, and not stick with the Windows CE > stuff, which is out of date by like 3 or so years, then we'd probably have a > better playing field. APH has gone a little better, in the original braille > plus, they used Linux. In the BP18, they are using Android, but the software > is still buggy, so I wouldn't recommend it at this time. But I think the > company that should be held the highest in regard is Apple. Yes, I know, > we've talked all about how they're so amazing and good, but truly, they've > given us almost everything we could want as far as hardware and > accessibility. We have computers, desktop and laptop, which are ALL > accessible. We have phones, which are under the cost of a few cars and a > mansion, no more mobile speak or talks. We have a PDA or small tablet, the > iPod. We have a mini and a regular iPad, tablets. And they're even working on > regular household appliances. And lets not forget about the Apple TV, which > makes hulu accessible. So why have notetakers? I'd say, word processing. But > I'm willing to bet that if we can get enough programmers who are blind > onboard, we will have an accessible word processer. We will have an > accessible MUD client. We will have all the programs and games and apps for > iOS we want. So just have patients everyone, the Apple ride will succeed. > sent from my Mac Mini with iCloud. > Devin prater > email and iMessage: [email protected] or [email protected] > Skype: > devinprater > msn: > [email protected] > > > On Feb 17, 2013, at 6:19 AM, Cheree Heppe <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Cheree Heppe here: >> >> Actually, to compare HumanWare and the likes of Freedom Scientific to models >> of accessibility would be like comparing the warden of a prison to the >> leader of a democracy. Both these are for profit entities which is fine, >> but both do not conform to Windows or any other standards, except when >> absolutely unaboidable. The reason these blindness accessibility businesses >> don't conform is because they must set themselves apart from their >> competition. If all of the screen reader makers, note taker builders and >> such followed a standard protocol, as computer builders have been pressured >> by the market to do, then, blind consumers would only have to compare based >> on performance. Instead, we as a community sit through flashy demos and >> broad promises of productivity only to discover, thousands of dollars and >> massive weeks of struggle later, that the hype does not equal the >> performance. >> >> Remember, or maybe not, when computer builders sought to set themselves >> apart by making differently configured keyboards and different command >> sequences for their machines and software? The pressure of the consumer >> community forced a leveling of that particular landscape so that all a >> consumer need worry about involved the operation of the unit or program. >> >> The blindness gadgetry falls into the early mistaken mold of wanting to >> distinguish itself by things other than strict performance. >> >> >> Regards, >> Cheree Heppe >> >> >> Sent from my iPad Mini >> >> On 2013 Whe 16, at 20:59, Danny Noonan <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> That fine line between striving for fare access and thinking access should >>> be the primary goal. Access first is HumanWare freedom and the like and I >>> find using the App Store far easier and accessible than learning most of >>> their offerings. >>> >>> It often seems to me the community is polarised between wanting to climb >>> mountains and fly plains and expecting the world to totally conform to >>> there wants and needs. I'll sit in the middle and work a little harder to >>> learn how to do things and occasionally fail but remain truly great full >>> for what I have. >>> >>> Thank you apple. Go ahead and make something pretty. Just so long as I can >>> still use it efectively how Can I complain. You don't have to make it >>> accessible at all! I will report bugs and make suggestions for improving >>> and will grumble over things I don't like but I won't expect you and yours >>> to make decisions based on me first. >>> >>> Danny. >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On 17/02/2013, at 1:56 AM, Cheree Heppe <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Cheree Heppe here: >>>> This fascinates me. Whenever a change in accessibility is made that >>>> impairs us, somebody always apologizes for us by saying that we have to >>>> make allowances for the visuals among us. Does that strike anyone as >>>> backward thinking? >>>> >>>> Hanging accessibility on the visual appeal perceptions of a blind observer >>>> implies that we as blind people have no idea of what is easy to use or >>>> what is useful. Universal design does not mean me firster design, unless >>>> I'm seriously misunderstanding the intent of the English language. >>>> >>>> The previous iteration worked. This iteration is convoluted and >>>> restrictive. >>>> >>>> Earlier, Apple made the choice to ignor accessibility and ended up losing >>>> the contract for the State of New York's schools because their newest >>>> version of accessibility had narrowed the access so badly that those >>>> needing the access couldn't use it and the Windows camp took precedence. >>>> >>>> I would hate to think that sort of slippage is re-asserting itself. >>>> >>>> My srance: The current iteration of IOS it flawed and moving farther into >>>> that area. My thinking is that somebody in Apple is embarrassed to be >>>> compared to a charity group pandoring to the disabled and, why don't the >>>> Apple people realize that they have a normal public to satisfy, etc. >>>> >>>> Well, the fact remains that anyone has the potential to require disability >>>> features. An accident, a careless inattention by our fellow man and we >>>> have the accessibility paradigm staring us in the face. There are always >>>> those pesky wars, where whole people come back with less than they left >>>> with. >>>> >>>> Accessibility features aid everyone. There should not be a stigma in how >>>> accessibility is introduced into a product. If there is doubt, the >>>> accessibility tab in the IOS devices is way at the bottom of the list of >>>> other modalities,. Accessibility should be intuitive and simple, so that >>>> somebody newly faced with issues that already cloud their emothins and >>>> judgment can just reach out and keep going with a slightly new form. >>>> >>>> The App Store isn't easy and isn't accessible. The IBooks store is iffy >>>> and tedious to navigate as a blind user now and it didn't act that way >>>> before the new IOS iteration. >>>> >>>> So, do I just return to paying my $75 or $50 fee and reading second hand >>>> through BookShare? >>>> >>>> Anybody out there listening? I hope so, because Apple made a gigantic >>>> stride toward equalizing the paying field. It must have really bothered a >>>> few and maybe there are influences geared to making this new, shiny >>>> equality a bit tarnished to turn those ungrateful blind types back toward >>>> those who really know best how to care for and govern them. >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Cheree Heppe >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sent from my IPhone 4S >>>> >>>> On 16/02/2013, at 2:31, Donna Goodin <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Well said, Alex. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Donna >>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 11:43 PM, Alex Hall <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I agree. While I don't use the iBook Store much, I use the App Store all >>>>> the time. Once I got used to the new layout, I had no problems at all, >>>>> and still don't. Yes, I preferred the old layout, but one thing we have >>>>> to remember is that the iOS platform is geared toward being visually >>>>> pleasing and easy to use. Putting accessibility on that should not limit >>>>> Apple. That is, if it sells more devices and looks better to set things >>>>> up the way they have done in iOS6, and if that new interface can be made >>>>> totally accessible, then they have every right to make the change. Just >>>>> because it is different, or not as easy to use at first glance, does not >>>>> make it worse. For instance, one thing people forget to use in the new >>>>> App Store is heading navigation, which lets you flick between the app and >>>>> the selected information. You can also touch the left-most tab on the >>>>> bottom, flick left once, and there's your adjustable picker of search >>>>> results. Does Apple make mistakes? Yes, and plenty of them, but they sell >>>>> millions of units and are trying to please a huge range of users. Do they >>>>> make interfaces that are accessible but horrible to use? Yes (Garageband, >>>>> for instance - you can use it, but not efficiently). Overall, though, >>>>> they do their best, they have an amazing accessibility department, and, >>>>> remember, Voiceover is still younger than most of the screen readers out >>>>> there, yet it can easily compete with any of them. >>>>> On Feb 16, 2013, at 12:28 AM, Ricardo Walker <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> I must say, I'm at a total loss about iBooks and the app store. These >>>>>> seem to be working fine for me on all my IOS devices. I remember a few >>>>>> months back, when they first changed the app store there was accessible >>>>>> issues. I think they fixed that in a month or less. And I've never had >>>>>> any problems using the table index sliders. Just to be clear, I'm not >>>>>> saying that you are not indeed having these issues. I'm just wondering, >>>>>> could it be user error? >>>>>> >>>>>> Ricardo Walker >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> Twitter:@apple2thecore >>>>>> www.appletothecore.info >>>>>> >>>>>> On Feb 15, 2013, at 10:57 PM, Cheree Heppe <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheree Heppe here: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No need to make excuses for Apple. The IBooks store and the App Store >>>>>>> have become significantly less accessible with the changing IOS >>>>>>> versions. This doesn't have to happen and is a bad sign. In IBooks, >>>>>>> there are horizontal rows of titles and at either end of those rows >>>>>>> oone encounters a slider or something that when barely touched will >>>>>>> shift the titles listings so that a blind user has a hell of a time >>>>>>> determining what the list actually contains. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The same slider in the contacts list on the IPhone works well because >>>>>>> it somehow paces itself with the user's scrolling finger and is very >>>>>>> usable. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The App Store has these screen shots and a tiny place to flick up or >>>>>>> whatever that in using the I-devices since 2010, I have not been able >>>>>>> to master. The earlier iteration of the app store's accessibility >>>>>>> worked so well that it was easy to read about the apps, move through a >>>>>>> list and so on. I have barely used either the app store or IBooks >>>>>>> store since these limitations became part of the IOS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> These changes make it nearly impossible for a new blind user to get a >>>>>>> confident sense of the potential for independent access that we got >>>>>>> only a few IOS upgrades ago. This would be very off putting to me if I >>>>>>> had acquired my I-device recently. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Apple does not have to model its screen reader and access after the >>>>>>> seriously broken JAWS example. I use JAWS at work and have never >>>>>>> experienced a computer program so poorly equipped to do a job. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>> Cheree Heppe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my IPhone 4S >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 15/02/2013, at 15:50, "Blake Sinnett" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would have to agree. Apple has lost some of their magic ever since >>>>>>> the middle of last year. Things just seem to be breaking a little too >>>>>>> often. iCloud, bugs in iOS 6, the maps fiasco... Who knows what'll >>>>>>> happen next. Of course Tim's just taken over, so maybe after a while >>>>>>> things'll smooth out. The only thing we can do is wait and see what >>>>>>> happens. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blake >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> From: <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 11:42 AM >>>>>>> To: <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Subject: OT: iOS 6 Disappointment! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> OT: iOS 6 disappointment! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Is anyone else feeling a little sad about the iOS eco-system since >>>>>>>> release in October. Don't get me wrong, there will always be issues. >>>>>>>> However Apple has had so many issues. >>>>>>>> First, you had the complete redesign of iBooks, App, iTunes store. In >>>>>>>> the first release the blind community lost a lot of access, because we >>>>>>>> didn't even have the ability to see ratings with the new software. >>>>>>>> Second, you had the App store crashing when you would go into the >>>>>>>> search area. This happened to everyone, not just our community. >>>>>>>> thirdly, who can forget the map debacle. >>>>>>>> You have devices going into recovery mode when you do a reset. >>>>>>>> The 6. 1 update you now have exchange issue. The extreme 4s battery >>>>>>>> issue, and now this morning people who use institutional accounts like >>>>>>>> at schools. Individuals can bypass the no downloading option. >>>>>>>> I just find this so sad. apple used to pay such close attention to >>>>>>>> stability, clean UI, and of course accessibility. I still love my >>>>>>>> Apple products, and hope things change under Jony Ive. Is anyone else >>>>>>>> feeling slightly let down? This is just a short list, I know you could >>>>>>>> point out more. I just pointed out a few which never should have >>>>>>>> happened! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> J.P. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Have a great day, >>>>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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