Hi Steve,
I think that the best thing you can possibly do to start learning about XCode
is just to do what you would do with any other app and pull it up and start
exploring.
I definitely recommend the first mac app tutorial. You will learn about the
basic work flow of XCode and about the model view controller pattern. They
walk you through all of the code you write so you don't have to be an
experienced objc programmer. It is also a jumping off point for other getting
started docs.
On Sep 5, 2013, at 5:05 AM, Steve Holmes <steve.holme...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm an experienced programmer in other platforms like mainframe, C, Perl, php,
etc. But this discussion of Xcode and stuff is quite interesting to me but
seems to go way over my head. Where can I find some good tutorials or intro
manuals to get going using this environment? I have a book I bought recently
which goes into iOS programming but I think I would rather start out with the
Mac and then move over there.
Any ideas?
On Aug 29, 2013, at 5:04 PM, Cara Quinn <modelc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Alex, I'll place comments below.
>
> Smiles,
>
> cara :)
>
> On Aug 29, 2013, at 4:03 PM, Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thank you for the response. Yes, dot syntax is used exclusively in Python and
> Java, two languages with which i am very comfortable. I think my main
> confusion stemmed from my not understanding that you were making the
> viewController class into an instance inside the delegate class. In
> retrospect it is rather obvious, but I did not put it together until I saw
> things written out using self. Knowing that the underscore is a shortcut for
> self helps in reading code snippets, but I know there are differences under
> the hood so will steer clear of using that for the moment.
>
> I wasn't mixing up the class name and object name. I was thinking that the
> object name you gave it in the .h file had to be used in the .m file, I think
> that is still unclear: how does the .m file get the name you gave the object
> in the .h file? I see where you declare the class in the .h file, then you
> import the .h file in the .m file. Is that enough?
>
> // CQ
>
> Not sure exactly what you are asking here. When the files are created, XCode
> creates both the h and m files with the same name.
>
> In order to use the class to create objects from it, you need to import it,
> just like in Java.
>
> The reason I placed the @class declaration in the h file is that the import
> is in the m file so the compiler will knot recognize the class yet. So you
> are telling it, trust me, there is a class definition coming, just wait. :)
>
> That way you can declare your class members in your @property statements in
> your h file. Does this make sense?
>
> Remember, your file names are actually your class names…
>
> In Objective-C, does importing add everything that was imported to the
> namespace of the file doing the importing?
>
> // CQ
>
> There are no namespaces in objective C. If you want to use namespaces you
> need to use objective C++.
>
> Importing makes your imported class available to your file which is doing the
> importing.
>
> In Python, you would use dot notation to access variables and classes in
> imported files; importing only lets you get to them, it does not provide them
> to you without you needing to specify which file they are from.
> On Aug 29, 2013, at 6:10 PM, Cara Quinn <modelc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Alex, first off, let me congratulate you on getting your code to run! :)
>>
>> I'll add some comments below and also ask you to share your h and m files so
>> I can answer your question you ask in your other note, about why self works.
>>
>> comments below marked with:
>>
>> // CQ
>>
>> Have a great day!
>>
>> Smiles,
>>
>> Cara :)
>> On Aug 29, 2013, at 12:07 PM, Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> See my comments below.
>> On Aug 29, 2013, at 2:43 PM, Cara Quinn <modelc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Alex,
>>>
>>> Just another quickie for right now as I'm a bit busy. :)
>>>
>>> • the caraView in the h file is the declaration.
>> Yes, that makes complete sense.
>>>
>>> • The CaraView in both the h and m files is the class name. (I.E. the type)
>> That also makes perfect sense.
>>>
>>> • The _caraView in the h file is the way I'm chose to access caraView.
>> Now you've lost me. Is the underscore followed by the class name not
>> synthesized by the @property statement from the .h file?
>>
>> // CQ
>>
>> It is not the class name which is preceded by the underscore, it is the
>> object.
>>
>> The way I read your sentence was that you chose to name the object _caraView
>> in the .m file, but that is different from what you named it in the @class
>> statement in the .h file.
>>
>> // CQ
>>
>> It sounds like you might be confusing the class and the object. the @class
>> statement declares the class so what follows that is the class name.
>>
>> The instance of that class, the object, is what you access to actually use
>> in your app.
>>
>> There is more than one way to access your object. YOu can use
>> self.yourObject and you can use _yourObject. Both of these ways access
>> yourObject but they do different things.
>>
>> So for now, just use self.yourObject. :)
>>
>> Self I understand, or think I do; I would write things like "self.view",
>> but what about that firs line where you call the constructor? Is the name
>> you set there important, or is that where I'd start using self? That is:
>> self = [[MainWindowViewViewController alloc]...
>> Self does not seem to quite fit there because we are not inside the
>> implementation of the view controller, but rather the app delegate, so self
>> would refer to the app delegate, not the controller class. Or would I use
>> the name I gave the class from the .h file, such as
>> myMainView=[[MainWindowViewViewController alloc]...
>>>
>>> // CQ
>>
>>> YOu would use self.myMainView
>>
>> Are you familiar with the dot syntax? In this case, you are saying that
>> myMainView is a member of self. Self is your app delegate. So since your
>> view controller which is called myMainView is a member of your app delegate
>> class, you access it by saying look in self and find myMainView.
>>
>> Thus:
>>
>> self.myMainView
>>
>> Does this make sense?
>>
>> YOu can think of dot syntax as a map in a way. If you are sitting in your
>> living room on your couch, you might be able to locate you by saying:
>>
>> alexHouse.livingRoom.couch.alex
>>
>> So it's like an address or map to point to the object you want to work with.
>>
>> Hope this helps and hope your day is going awesome!
>>
>> Smiles,
>>
>> Cara :)
>>> HTH and talk soon!
>>>
>>> Smiles,
>>>
>>> Cara :)
>>> On Aug 29, 2013, at 11:24 AM, Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Okay, let's use a generic, pseudo-code example, since I have a feeling my
>>> lack of familiarity with the finer points of Obj-c is causing my confusion.
>>>
>>> class Car
>>> {
>>> //constructor:
>>> function init(color=nil){
>>> self.color=color
>>> }
>>>
>>> function getColor()
>>> {
>>> return self.color
>>> }
>>>
>>> function setColor("new color")
>>> {
>>> return self.color=color
>>> }
>>> }
>>>
>>> Now let's use it:
>>>
>>> myCar=Car("yellow");
>>> myCar.getColor() //yellow
>>> myCar.setColor("blue") //true
>>> myCar.getColor() //blue
>>>
>>> So, we have a class, Car, an object, myCar, and we operate on that object.
>>> Now, Objective-C would give us the getter and setter for free, but also
>>> something I believe is called _Car, or maybe _myCar. What is that used for
>>> if we already have the myCar variable in use? In Cara's example, she used
>>> all three. I get making an object, but then what was that underscored name
>>> that is automatically generated used for if we've already made an instance?
>>> On Aug 29, 2013, at 1:59 PM, "Jan Blüher, visorApps"
>>> <jn.b...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Alex,
>>>>
>>>> it depends on where you want to store things. The property is an
>>>> opportunity to store something inside a class instance - in your case in
>>>> the AppDelegate-instance. Did I get your pint?
>>>>
>>>> Greetings
>>>>
>>>> Jan
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> MouseKick - The mice are coming!
>>>> Download on the App Store:
>>>> http://AppStore.com/MouseKick
>>>> ---
>>>> Dr. Jan Blüher
>>>> visorApps - Accessible apps for iPad & iPhone
>>>> Bayreuther Str. 2
>>>> D-01187 Dresden
>>>> Germany
>>>>
>>>> phone: +49 (0) 351 16053907
>>>> mobile: +49 (0) 176 34926242
>>>> e-mail: jan.blue...@visorapps.com
>>>> web: http://visorApps.com
>>>> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/#visorApps
>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/VisorApps
>>>>
>>>> tax number: DE281706766
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 29.08.2013 um 19:36 schrieb Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I saw that in the docs on properties, but was not clear on what the
>>>>> instance variable does. In my experience in other languages, you don't
>>>>> have an instance until you ask for it by instantiating a class. You'd
>>>>> then use that object to reference the class's methods. I guess I don't
>>>>> see where this new underscored name comes in; if I create an instance of
>>>>> a class, I name it, and I have my name. Why do I need a second name that
>>>>> the @property gives me?
>>>>> On Aug 29, 2013, at 12:47 PM, "Jan Blüher, visorApps"
>>>>> <jn.b...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hallo Alex,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the underscore comes from the property declaration. If you declare a
>>>>>> property such as
>>>>>>
>>>>>> @property (nonatomic, strong) NSWindow *window;
>>>>>>
>>>>>> without doing anything else, the compiler will generate three things by
>>>>>> default:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. an instance variable holding the value of the property. By default,
>>>>>> the name of this variable will be _window.
>>>>>> 2. A getter method like:
>>>>>> - (NSWindow *) window {return _window;}
>>>>>> 3. A setter method like:
>>>>>> - (void) setWindow:(NSWindow *)wondow {_window = window;}
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greetings
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> MouseKick - The mice are coming!
>>>>>> Download on the App Store:
>>>>>> http://AppStore.com/MouseKick
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Dr. Jan Blüher
>>>>>> visorApps - Accessible apps for iPad & iPhone
>>>>>> Bayreuther Str. 2
>>>>>> D-01187 Dresden
>>>>>> Germany
>>>>>>
>>>>>> phone: +49 (0) 351 16053907
>>>>>> mobile: +49 (0) 176 34926242
>>>>>> e-mail: jan.blue...@visorapps.com
>>>>>> web: http://visorApps.com
>>>>>> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/#visorApps
>>>>>> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/VisorApps
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tax number: DE281706766
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 29.08.2013 um 17:55 schrieb Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Okay, I have subclassed NSViewController and I see some extra code in
>>>>>>> MainWindowViewViewController.m (wow, long name - I wish it hadn't
>>>>>>> appended "Viewcontroller") which is exactly the constructor I need, so
>>>>>>> that's good. Now, though, the compiler does not like my _mainWindowView
>>>>>>> name. You seem to have three view names: CaraView (c and v upper case),
>>>>>>> caraView (just the v uppercase) and _caraView (just the v uppercase but
>>>>>>> with an underscore prepended). I see what you mean about not using the
>>>>>>> same name, and looking back that was a glaringly obvious mistake, but
>>>>>>> I'm not sure why and how you use three different names. That is, I know
>>>>>>> the first is the class name and the second is the instantiation of that
>>>>>>> class, but I don't see where the underscore one comes in, and I don't
>>>>>>> know these method calls so am not sure when you need to use the class
>>>>>>> name versus the object name versus the underscored name. In theory, I'd
>>>>>>> have a different view for every part of an app - main window,
>>>>>>> preferences, and whatever else the app needs, so would each view be in
>>>>>>> its own set of .h and .m files? Are the file names important when
>>>>>>> naming view classes, or only when importing?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To keep this at least slightly on-topic for this list, if I'm on an
>>>>>>> issue in the table when the issue navigator is selected, is there a way
>>>>>>> to jump to the relevant code? Right now I stop interacting with the
>>>>>>> table, move to the top and vo-space to choose the project navigator,
>>>>>>> stop interacting, vo-right twice, interact twice, vo-right twice again,
>>>>>>> then finally interact with the source code, and that's not counting
>>>>>>> checking the project files outline table to make sure the file I want
>>>>>>> is selected before going to its source code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks so much for your help! Once I understand this part, I see where,
>>>>>>> in the view controller files, I'd add my actual UI, so right now my
>>>>>>> stumbling block is just getting this project to run and seeing why it
>>>>>>> works.
>>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2013, at 11:00 AM, Cara Quinn <modelc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Alex, just a quick one for now but will write more if you need.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Still early and haven't eaten breakfast yet! ;)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Okay, first things first;
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not sure if you saw my last note last night but you need to be
>>>>>>>> subclassing your view controller from NSViewController not NSWindow.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Secondly, my example will compile but you need to do the above.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lastly, I did change the spelling of my object from my class name.
>>>>>>>> It's common to have the class name capitalized and not have the object
>>>>>>>> name capitalized. (at least the first letter) -And in this case, it is
>>>>>>>> necessary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So you should not be using the same capitalization in your case as
>>>>>>>> this will confuse the compiler. -And depending on what you're doing in
>>>>>>>> your h file (what you may have changed) You also may be effectively
>>>>>>>> trying to re-instantiate the same object. So don't do this. :)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hope this helps and will check back in soon.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Smiles,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cara :)
>>>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2013, at 6:20 AM, Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello again,
>>>>>>>> Further to my last post, I am still unable to get the project to run.
>>>>>>>> The first problem is on the line:
>>>>>>>> _MainWindowView = [[MainWindowView alloc]...
>>>>>>>> It seems to want a type identifier, so I changed it to:
>>>>>>>> MainWindowView* _MainWindowView =...
>>>>>>>> but now the first error I get is this:
>>>>>>>> No visible @interface for 'MainWindowView' declares the selector
>>>>>>>> 'initWithNibName:bundle:'
>>>>>>>> From that, I gather I need to do more in the code for the
>>>>>>>> interface/implementation of MainWindowView, since obviously there is
>>>>>>>> no constructor that matches the above instanciation (how do you spell
>>>>>>>> that?), but I'm not sure what that might be exactly. Can you shed some
>>>>>>>> light on what might be going on? Was your example meant to compile, or
>>>>>>>> is there additional work I'll need to do in the MainWindowView code
>>>>>>>> first? I made it a subclass of NSWindow, just to get things off the
>>>>>>>> ground, but perhaps that was a mistake? Thanks for any help.
>>>>>>>> On Aug 28, 2013, at 9:14 PM, Cara Quinn <modelc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Again Alex and Tyler,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I thought I'd post some code for you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I just created a basic XCode project which displays a window. I will
>>>>>>>>> post the code below.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the h file is first and then the m file.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I create a view controller and add it to my project, declare the
>>>>>>>>> class and then import it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> YOu'll notice that in the app delegate m file that I create the
>>>>>>>>> caraView object and then add its view to the window. This is the
>>>>>>>>> proper way to manage views so you can not only work with more than
>>>>>>>>> one if you choose, but also so you can have the right code for a view
>>>>>>>>> placed in its view controller where it is supposed to be.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've placed no buttons or controls in this window so this is an
>>>>>>>>> excellent place to start if we want to continue discussing this. If I
>>>>>>>>> were to add a button I'd do that in my view controller itself.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hope this makes sense and please don't hesitate to shout out if you
>>>>>>>>> have any other questions.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here's the code…
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> // h
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> #import <Cocoa/Cocoa.h>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> @class CaraView;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> @interface AppDelegate : NSObject <NSApplicationDelegate>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> @property (strong, nonatomic) CaraView* caraView;
>>>>>>>>> @property (assign) IBOutlet NSWindow *window;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> @end
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> // m
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> #import "AppDelegate.h"
>>>>>>>>> #import "CaraView.h"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> @implementation AppDelegate
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - (void)applicationDidFinishLaunching:(NSNotification *)aNotification
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>> // Insert code here to initialize your application
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _caraView = [[CaraView alloc] initWithNibName:@"CaraView" bundle:nil];
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [_window.contentView addSubview:_caraView.view];
>>>>>>>>> _caraView.view.frame = ((NSView*)_window.contentView).bounds;
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> @end
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Smiles,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cara :)
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 28, 2013, at 4:45 PM, Cara Quinn <modelc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Alex, while I'm not Tyler, don't remove that line! lol!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That declaration represents the object that represents the
>>>>>>>>> application window. If you remove that then you'll have essentially
>>>>>>>>> no app. :) YOu'll have nothing to which to add your views which will
>>>>>>>>> hold your UI elements.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does this make sense?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> what's happening with your app is simple but not obvious.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> XCode uses a combination of text files and XML files to create your
>>>>>>>>> application. Even though you're not calling a nib file in code, there
>>>>>>>>> is an XML file which is pointing to one. XCode creates this by
>>>>>>>>> default when you create a new application. YOu can either put your
>>>>>>>>> nib file back, or you'll need to edit one of these XML files.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rather than do the later, I'd encourage you to simply put back your
>>>>>>>>> nib.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you cannot do that, then create a new project and do not do not do
>>>>>>>>> not remove the nib file. :) Did I mention do not remove the nib file?
>>>>>>>>> ;)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anyway, sorry I can't be of more help.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are some great tutorials online which you can check out but
>>>>>>>>> also, I'm always available to answer any questions as well. Just
>>>>>>>>> shout out and I'll respond. :)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think we should keep this on the list as this is a good topic to
>>>>>>>>> make people aware of who might be thinking of starting to write
>>>>>>>>> accessible apps for Mac and iOS.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cara :)
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 28, 2013, at 12:44 PM, Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Further to my last message, i discovered a different debug area, in
>>>>>>>>> which resides the log of the build. The last line said, "2013-08-28
>>>>>>>>> 15:32:10.292 IBless[2243:303] Unable to load nib file: MainMenu,
>>>>>>>>> exiting"
>>>>>>>>> So, the IB is apparently still being searched for. Tyler, how did you
>>>>>>>>> get your project to run with no IB at all? Should I remove this line
>>>>>>>>> from app delegate.h:
>>>>>>>>> @property (assign) IBOutlet NSWindow *window;
>>>>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2013, at 7:39 PM, Tyler Thompson
>>>>>>>>> <tktpianostud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I’d like to post this little code snippet for anybody who’s
>>>>>>>>>> interested. This is for OSX apps (as i find them easier to test) and
>>>>>>>>>> it’s incredibly simple, but it’ll give anyone who is interested an
>>>>>>>>>> idea of how to do what we’ve been talking about.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So i created a new project under Xcode and DELETED the .xib file (so
>>>>>>>>>> the Interface Builder is never touched)
>>>>>>>>>> I named my Xcode project skipIB
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I didn’t touch appDelegate.h but here’s what i’ve written for
>>>>>>>>>> appDelegate.m
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> #import "AppDelegate.h"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> @implementation AppDelegate
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> - (void)applicationDidFinishLaunching:(NSNotification *)aNotification
>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>> // Insert code here to initialize your application
>>>>>>>>>> NSButton *myButton = [[NSButton alloc]
>>>>>>>>>> initWithFrame:NSMakeRect(0, 0, 50, 50)];
>>>>>>>>>> // We create a simple square button at the bottom left of the
>>>>>>>>>> screen position 0,0
>>>>>>>>>> [[_window contentView] addSubview:myButton];
>>>>>>>>>> // We tell our applications main window to add our button to its
>>>>>>>>>> view
>>>>>>>>>> [myButton setAction:@selector(buttonPressed)];
>>>>>>>>>> // We tell our button to use our buttonPressed method when the
>>>>>>>>>> button is pressed...
>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -(void)buttonPressed
>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>> NSLog (@"YOU PRESSED THE BUTTON");
>>>>>>>>>> //We send a message to our debugger to let us know our button was
>>>>>>>>>> pressed
>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> @end
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The point of this snippet is to show the ease of skipping the
>>>>>>>>>> interface builder. This is accessible, you can run it, and press
>>>>>>>>>> said button. To do this on IOS would have slightly different syntax,
>>>>>>>>>> but the same idea applies. It actually took me longer to comment
>>>>>>>>>> this code than it did to look up NSButtons setAction method in the
>>>>>>>>>> apple docs and write the rest of the code.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I can’t say i’d provide a tutorial, but I would be more than happy
>>>>>>>>>> to work with any individuals interested in writing apps for either
>>>>>>>>>> IOS or OSX. I invite you all to try this code, i’ve just tested it
>>>>>>>>>> (with voiceOver) and everything seems to be working’ fine :)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2013, at 4:50 PM, Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know enough about Objective-c to know one way or the other,
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm just telling you what people on those two lists said. The other
>>>>>>>>>>> problem in all this is that, if you do find a tutorial on making
>>>>>>>>>>> UIs without IB, the author assumes you are very well-versed in the
>>>>>>>>>>> language already. Beginners generally use IB since it does the hard
>>>>>>>>>>> work that they do not understand, plus it has myriad advantages
>>>>>>>>>>> (accessibility, proper declarations, plain old ease of use, proper
>>>>>>>>>>> placement of code in files...) A step-by-step buide, at the end of
>>>>>>>>>>> which we have a fully accessible, if simple, app and where IB is
>>>>>>>>>>> not even mentioned, would be ideal.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2013, at 6:29 PM, Tyler Thompson
>>>>>>>>>>> <tktpianostud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I’m beta testing xcode 5 and it doesn’t look like anything has
>>>>>>>>>>>> changed in that respect. While i have no desire to argue what
>>>>>>>>>>>> you’ve pointed out I would like to say I disagree, i believe it’s
>>>>>>>>>>>> not very difficult to ignore IB altogether if that’s what somebody
>>>>>>>>>>>> chooses, I think the biggest danger is you can end up not making
>>>>>>>>>>>> your app accessible by doing this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2013, at 4:07 PM, Alex Hall <mehg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are two lists, xcode-users and objc-language, both at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> apple.com. I am on both, and I asked them about laying out apps
>>>>>>>>>>>>> programatically and foregoing IB entirely. I was basically told
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that it is difficult to impossible and I would really need to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to use IB to do anything useful. Plus, while it *may* be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> possible to not use IB, as others have said, every tutorial and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> book out there assumes you are using it, and for good reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Even Apple's own tutorials, one of which I tried to walk through
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a few months ago, offered no alternatives to IB. I have reported
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the unfortunate accessibility bug that prevents VO users from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> control-dragging actions a few times, so they most definitely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> know it exists. Perhpas Xcode5 will fix it and all this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussion will be moot.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2013, at 2:10 PM, Barry Hadder <bhad...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, the developers of IB don't know any more about OBJC or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apis than anyone else. It is just a convenient way of designing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the UI and other aspects of the architecture of an app. There
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are also performance benefits for using IB in that you have the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ability to only loads resources in to memory when they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed, such as windows or panels. You can also initialize the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> values of object properties in the xib so you don't have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually instantiate the object at run time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not write your app for you. You can't possibly develop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an app with it unless you know objective C and C. If you drag a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> button or textfield out of the library on to your canvas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> position it in the window, it still does absolutely nothing with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out code.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of the documentation for all of the apis used in IB, or any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others can be found on develper.apple.com. For example, just go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to google and type NSButton or UITableViewController and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> class references will be at or very near the top of the search
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> results.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hear is some objective c links:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ProgrammingWithObjectiveC/Introduction/Introduction.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#referencelibrary/GettingStarted/Learning_Objective-C_A_Primer/index.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Cocoa link:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/CocoaFundamentals/Introduction/Introduction.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a Mac app development link:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#referencelibrary/GettingStarted/RoadMapOSX/books/RM_YourFirstApp_Mac/Articles/GettingStarted.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some IOS development links:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/iphone/conceptual/iphone101/Articles/00_Introduction.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/iPhone/Conceptual/SecondiOSAppTutorial/Introduction/Introduction.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/General/Conceptual/iCloud101/GettingStarted/GettingStarted.html%23//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40011317-CH2-SW1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you have a Mac and you are interested in app development, You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have all of the tools and documentation at your disposal. You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't need to buy any special books to learn how to do things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I posted a lot of links, but that is just a fraction of what is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available. I'm just trying to show people that there is lots of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> docs out there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Later to day or tomorrow, I will post on how to lay out a simple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> window and create an outlet and action in your code using IB.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've posted this before and I'm sure it is in the archives
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> somewhere, but I think I can do a much better job. For one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing, I'm not going to explain how to use vo as no one has any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> business doing any kind of work with XCode until you know how to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hope that helps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Barry Hadder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bhad...@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://twitter.com/BarryHadder
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UnitMaster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Available in the Mac app store.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2013, at 9:41 AM, Paul Hunt <prhu...@att.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Tyler. Here’s the problem. The developers who build the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interface Builder know a lot more about Objective C and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> various APIS than we do. When people use the Interface builder,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much of the heavy lifting is already done for them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Consequently, Authors who write textbooks don’t take the time to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> take us under the hood where we really need to be. Instead, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teach the Interface builder then teach students to write the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> code for the events. I checked www.overstock.com and found it to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be a huge general purpose forum. We really need access to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehensive Objective C documentation, a complete list of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> APIS and the documentation for each. Once we learn to build
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applications programmatically, then we are more competent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programmers than our sighted counterparts because we understand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what’s really going on. In addition, when we use a textbook, we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> literally have to translate Interface Builder speak into lines
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of code. The question then is this, where is the Objective C
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> documentation? Where can we find a description of all of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> APIS? Can you point us in the right direction?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks so much.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf OfTyler
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thompson
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 5, 2013 2:13 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: xcode creating actions and outlets
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe me i understand the frustrations of working with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> objective C, especially if it’s new. As it happens I find that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programmatically linking your UI elements tends to actually work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a little better (as it gives you much more control), but for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each person it’s different :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2013, at 1:05 AM, Yuma Antoine Decaux
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <jamy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There is a method which i found on the maccessibility news page.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Convoluted, and not able to do it yet, it's driving me crazy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I might try it programmatically but i'm going through a textbook
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> method and they're entirely gui based so i'm left wanting, once
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more. Starting to get tired of the whole idea of computers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Feel like throwing this macbook out and hammer it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Light has no value without darkness"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5/07/2013, at 12:28 PM, Tyler Thompson
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <tktpianostud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To tack on to my previous comment here’s how you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programatically link objects with objective c
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NSButton *theButton;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [theButton addTarget:self action:@selector(buttonMethod:)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forControlEvents:someControlEvent];
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 4, 2013, at 10:23 PM, Yuma Antoine Decaux
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <jamy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going through an IOS book right now, and am stuck at a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point where i need to create an action in my controller for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> button. I'm supposed to control drag a button to my assistant
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> editor so that x code can automatically place the appropriate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> action method and properties to my project.h, project.m and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> project.xib files. But there is no control drag in voice over.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this another unsurmountable obstacle or is there actually a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> method to do this?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any help greatly appreciated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yuma
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Light has no value without darkness"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Light has no value without darkness"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email tomacvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mehg...@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>>>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
>>>>>>>>>>> mehg...@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
>>>>>>>>> mehg...@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
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>>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
>>>>>>>> mehg...@gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>>>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
>>>>>>> mehg...@gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Have a great day,
>>>>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
>>>>> mehg...@gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Have a great day,
>>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
>>> mehg...@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> Have a great day,
>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
>> mehg...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> Have a great day,
> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini)
> mehg...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
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