Hello Stephen, > We should support netcat as a browser
Can you provide more information for this browser, as I could not find any references for it. > But if you mean you expect us to install partial changes if they don't result > in behavior changes, I hate to tell you, but that is not how this works. If > you are not going to remove all jQuery dependencies for an application (ie, > Postorious or HyperKitty and django-mailman3), we're not going to install > partial changes because that means that future developers need to know both > idioms well enough to realize they're different ways of saying the same > thing. As long as the currently proposed changes, which reduce dependency on jQuery, are not integrated, I personally see no point to look at further places to reduce the dependency on jQuery. The opposite is not true: if the currently proposed changes are integrated in the master branch, it does not mean that I will propose further changes. This project (mailman-core and web interfaces) has anyway the very unusual practice, for proposed changed as merge request, to wait (years) until somebody (e.g. by accident) fills a separate issue, which describes the problem, even if the problem is described in the merge request. So may be, or maybe not, the reason why the proposed by me merge requests are not considered is, because I have not filled for each of them a gitlab issue. One of my considerations is that even if a complete jQuery removal is proposed, it does not mean that the proposal will ever be reviewed. Having one big change - or many small changes which together look big - means that the change is hard to review, while smaller changes now and then are easier to review. Splitting the whole in smaller steps also implies that many people can contribute somehow to the removal of jQuery - now and then - putting limited time. I do not buy the argument that using no-jQuery-JavaScript and jQuery (at the same time) prevents development, with the argument that there are people who understand jQuery, but cannot work with JavaScript without jQuery. There are anyway hardly changes in the JavaScript files, not counting embedded JS in html and templates: For postorius git log -p $(find -name '*.js') shows two lines changed in 2025, zero lines changed in 2024. In 2023 there were 5 lines changed and a migration to bootstrap5 performed. In 2022 zero lines were changed. Bootstrap 5 implies that these browsers are supported - https://getbootstrap.com/docs/5.0/getting-started/browsers-devices/ . In Hyperkitty git log -p $(find -name '*.js') shows that the most recent change is from November 2023. Greetings // Дилян -----Original Message----- From: Stephen J. Turnbull <[email protected]> To: Дилян Палаузов <[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Mailman-Developers] Re: Review “Less jQuery” changes Date: 27/02/26 17:01:28 Дилян Палаузов writes: > > I do want to be sensitive to people still using old browsers > > Which browsers are supposed to be supported by django-mailman3, > Postorius and Hyperkitty? All of them. We should support netcat as a browser if we can, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not going to veto any changes because they don't display nicely in netcat, obviously. I think it is reasonable to try to support browsers without Javascript or with script interpretation turned off. That can be done with a .noscript class. It's not your problem to do that, but since you will be working on the templates, if you notice that some elements require JS and don't have .noscript alternatives, you should file issues for those. For other browsers, if we run into a problem, we'll deal with that when it happens. I'm certainly not going to ask someone to install Windows and Edge or Safari to test them, but if a problem is reported we'll want it fixed. > > So I encourage you to continue work on Postorius and its > > dependencies About the "size of change" estimate, when you do > > have a handle on that … > > If the currently proposed changes do not progress, it makes no > sense to look how to further decrease the dependency on jQuery. If by "progress" you mean "review of MRs", of course we'll do that. But if you mean you expect us to install partial changes if they don't result in behavior changes, I hate to tell you, but that is not how this works. If you are not going to remove all jQuery dependencies for an application (ie, Postorious or HyperKitty and django-mailman3), we're not going to install partial changes because that means that future developers need to know both idioms well enough to realize they're different ways of saying the same thing. Steve -- GNU Mailman consultant (installation, migration, customization) Sirius Open Source https://www.siriusopensource.com/ Software systems consulting in Europe, North America, and Japan _______________________________________________ Mailman-Developers mailing list -- [email protected] To unsubscribe send an email to [email protected] https://mail.python.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-developers.python.org/ Mailman FAQ: https://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: https://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
