Hey Michael, Sorry to bother :) did you have any news regarding these questions ? The point is really interesting for all of us here, and as a router to know if we have to be more strict with all our customers and "grey" senders, it could helps a lot to know if we have to multiply the current spam complaints count by xxx.
Thank you very much in advance ! Simon 2017-10-30 18:49 GMT+01:00 Michael Wise via mailop <mailop@mailop.org>: > > > I'm asking a few people to confirm my understanding and will get back to > y'all. > > > > Aloha, > > Michael. > > -- > > *Michael J Wise* > Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis > > "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." > > Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool > <http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ? > > > > *From:* Benjamin BILLON [mailto:bbillon...@splio.fr] > *Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2017 1:13 AM > *To:* Michael Wise <michael.w...@microsoft.com> > > *Cc:* mailop@mailop.org > *Subject:* Re: [mailop] Hotmail, green SNDS and junk folder placement > > > > Hi Michael, > > > > > Also, the JMRP doesn't generate 1:1 reports for each piece of traffic > reported as spam. > > > The ratio is much smaller than that, otherwise senders would use it for > List Washing, and that's frowned upon. > > Wow, wow wow wow. > > This is absolutely new to me. > > That would explain why we receive only 1/3 of the volume of ARF from > Hotmail/Live than from Yahoo, while we send twice more to Hotmail/Live than > Yahoo. > > However, that's not what https://mail.live.com/mail/services.aspx > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmail.live.com%2Fmail%2Fservices.aspx&data=02%7C01%7CMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7Ccb944cd6e3774b90488008d51ddba47d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636447751559036363&sdata=3a0W7hWDKF7thrba%2FZgXXc%2FPROgtnmDeoDgfzPmVOGY%3D&reserved=0> > says: "Returns the full message with headers of *any* email marked as > "junk" or "phishing"" > > This is a HUGE change, if potential list washing is the issue, IMHO this > is the wrong answer. This basically makes JMRP irrelevant for ESPs: we > don't have reliable metrics, we can not satisfy people complaining as > they'll keep getting the same message, probably in junk folder, which will > probably weight negatively in the reputation ... > > > > I'm totally amazed by this information. > > > > That being said, even though the ratio is not 1:1, I _guess_ it's roughly > the same for everybody. So we have clients that generate more than 9 > complains a month and still enjoy a low BCL and inbox placement, while this > one got an inexplicable BCL of 8. > > > > For the record, the ticket is SRX1401741292ID it highlights the > discrepancy SNDS color / inbox placement (as Terry told me to do), and > timidly mention the BCL without naming it (I reminded my folks to be more > explicit in the tickets). > > The last reply we got was "after reviewing the information you provided > and in compliance with our mail policies, we are unable to offer immediate > mitigation for your deliverability issue", so I guess we washed off the > Support Level 2. I wonder how many levels before the final boss! > > > > Cheers, > > > > -- > > Benjamin > > > > 2017-10-28 7:46 GMT+08:00 Michael Wise via mailop <mailop@mailop.org>: > > > > There are ways of dealing with BCL, but I'd suggest you point it out when > opening the ticket. > > Also, the JMRP doesn't generate 1:1 reports for each piece of traffic > reported as spam. > > The ratio is much smaller than that, otherwise senders would use it for > List Washing, and that's frowned upon. > > > > Aloha, > > Michael. > > -- > > *Michael J Wise* > Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis > > "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." > > Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdownload%2Fdetails.aspx%3Fid%3D18275&data=02%7C01%7CMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7Ccb944cd6e3774b90488008d51ddba47d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636447751559036363&sdata=axj8QBuiquHGROCaLZG7WLfc6JK2yj0NH8FwxZT%2Bb7I%3D&reserved=0> > ? > > > > *From:* mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] *On Behalf Of *Brett > Schenker > *Sent:* Friday, October 27, 2017 8:02 AM > *To:* Stefano Bagnara <mai...@bago.org> > *Cc:* mailop@mailop.org > *Subject:* Re: [mailop] Hotmail, green SNDS and junk folder placement > > > > My experience too is that BCL is the deciding factor over everything and > have yet to figure out how to really move it towards the positive. > > > > On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 10:51 AM, Stefano Bagnara <mai...@bago.org> wrote: > > On 24 October 2017 at 17:22, Benjamin BILLON via mailop <mailop@mailop.org> > wrote: > > Following Microsoft's folks recommendations (on this list and in ... a > Canadian city a few weeks ago), we're going through tickets as usual, but > we're for now circling around. > > I just wonder if other senders witnessed the same as described below: > > > > - SNDS says green > > - given the open rates for Hotmail (vs. other ISPs), seed lists tests and > other metrics, much less than 90% of emails are delivered in inbox > > - Forefront antispam says SFV:NSPM, SCL:1 > > - Microsoft antispam says BCL:8. That means "The message is from a bulk > sender that generates a high number of complaints" > > - 7 complaints for this sender (from 6 different recipients) this month, > as provided by JMRP. 7. In 24 days. > > > > It doesn't happen for many clients fortunately, but it's quite ... > disturbing. > > > > I see a similar pattern too. > > > > SNDS says "no issues" on your IP. Microsoft Support says "no issues with > your IP", they don't ever mention "BCL" but "SmartScreen" and "Content", > SNDS paint it Green, JMRP doesn't report FBL. > > > > Once you got an high BCL for an IP you are "lost". BCL moves very slowly > (+1/-1 needs one month or even more). > > > > If the IP is not shared at least you know the BCL have been "built" for > that very sender, but if your IP is shared then you have no clue why BCL is > so high. > > > > Stefano > > > > > > Cheers, > -- > > Benjamin > > > _______________________________________________ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchilli.nosignal.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmailop&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Cf931428dc890420e764508d51d4c937d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636447137096612140&sdata=fTOFE7O3nQft6dMlFrI1rzy7atPPtcx61kTYfv7jTwU%3D&reserved=0> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchilli.nosignal.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmailop&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Cf931428dc890420e764508d51d4c937d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636447137096612140&sdata=fTOFE7O3nQft6dMlFrI1rzy7atPPtcx61kTYfv7jTwU%3D&reserved=0> > > > > > -- > > Brett Schenker > Man of Many Things, Including > 5B Consulting - http://www.5bconsulting.com > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.5bconsulting.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Cf931428dc890420e764508d51d4c937d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636447137096622149&sdata=wgXztRcuny2f%2FVz0p83htwyFp%2BVRZhMqjqOfrtYbr4A%3D&reserved=0> > Graphic Policy - http://www.graphicpolicy.com > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.graphicpolicy.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Cf931428dc890420e764508d51d4c937d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636447137096622149&sdata=zC%2FVpzn3cF0xkwpYYGuH1yiwjq2wSlAFm8MWrQlQ9Vc%3D&reserved=0> > > Twitter - http://twitter.com/bhschenker > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fbhschenker&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Cf931428dc890420e764508d51d4c937d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636447137096622149&sdata=vftNoHK2CyYrFNZnTzF4Gx%2Bea79o36N185ScdJSIf34%3D&reserved=0> > LinkedIn - http://www.linkedin.com/in/brettschenker > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fbrettschenker&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Cf931428dc890420e764508d51d4c937d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636447137096622149&sdata=YpeyaR5jp6K252ytEfiTUTDduTz48bahz2eVvpEdeO8%3D&reserved=0> > > > _______________________________________________ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchilli.nosignal.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmailop&data=02%7C01%7CMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7Ccb944cd6e3774b90488008d51ddba47d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636447751559046371&sdata=ywpCOkoLQkI2o9%2B2r9xAXF5cydbagLBWWp%2BHMxamRPM%3D&reserved=0> > > > > _______________________________________________ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > >
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