It is being actively discussed internally. That’s all I can say at this point.
Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ? From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Annalivia Ford Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 7:57 AM To: Benjamin BILLON <bbil...@splio.com> Cc: mailop@mailop.org Subject: Re: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook Hi Benjamin Im seeing some weird stuff too - a customer who hosts his email domain on O365, sent a few hundred thousand tests on our IP to his own domain, no hotmail or outlook addresses involved, and yet the test mailings show up on SNDS and his IP reputation is thrashed. The irony is he sends mail on behalf of an MS product. Im not really sure where to go with this from here, as our insisting tickets are being ignored. The law of unintended consequences? Regards, Annalivia Ford Email Services Manager, EMEA [IBM Cognitive Engagement | Watson Marketing | Watson Commerce | Watson Marketing]<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ibm.com%2Fwatson%2Fmarketing&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C82482e81cdcb4b4746a508d5627cf17e%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523211133580361&sdata=tc3BFyEMC3NUagmhViltGAMOJx8WLFxZEUxIvAXKNzM%3D&reserved=0> [IBM Watson] Phone: +31 (0)6 53 32 34 44 eMail: annalivi...@nl.ibm.com<mailto:annalivi...@nl.ibm.com> [Inactive hide details for Benjamin BILLON ---17/01/2018 02:01:20---Hi, A reputation has to be evaluated on the long term of cou]Benjamin BILLON ---17/01/2018 02:01:20---Hi, A reputation has to be evaluated on the long term of course, however the older the "action" was, From: Benjamin BILLON <bbil...@splio.com<mailto:bbil...@splio.com>> To: Michael Wise <michael.w...@microsoft.com<mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>>, Michael Wise via mailop <mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> Date: 17/01/2018 02:01 Subject: Re: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook Sent by: "mailop" <mailop-boun...@mailop.org<mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org>> ________________________________ Hi, A reputation has to be evaluated on the long term of course, however the older the "action" was, the less importance it should have. Another tricky part of "reputation", that we witnessed recently with Microsoft particularly, is that there are "links" created along with the reputation. We know that Gmail takes into account a lot of things, not just headers, and keywords, and domain names, and IP addresses, and behavior of users, but also interactions between those, and other stuff. We guess Microsoft does something similar. So these "links" could be tricky, as we recently had Brazilian clients moving out to another ESP. They had dedicated IPs. We forbid them to send crap (that might be a reason why the left), but now they're free again, so crap it is. The dedicated IPs, not sending anything anymore, have been blocked, as noticed in SNDS. We suspect that because they are using the same domain name now with the new provider, than they did with us previously, and that now they are spamming from totally unrelated IPs, our IPs have been impacted. The fortunate part is that there's nothing going out of these IPs, because if we immediately re-attributed them to another client, maybe this client would have issues, and we would be investigating what he was doing wrong while it could be not his fault at all. Maybe that could be solved after a few insistent tickets to the support. Cheers, -- Benjamin From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Wise via mailop Sent: Friday, 12 January, 2018 06:17 To: paul+mai...@oxygennetworks.com.au<mailto:paul+mai...@oxygennetworks.com.au>; 'Edgaras | SENDER' <edga...@sender.net<mailto:edga...@sender.net>> Cc: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>; 'Tim Starr' <timstar...@gmail.com<mailto:timstar...@gmail.com>> Subject: Re: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook Our reputation system has a *LONG* memory. And I'm sure it's not alone. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttp-3A__www.microsoft.com_en-2Dus_download_details.aspx-3Fid-3D18275%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3DjCodoQuqQeb4ZiFmcv2Hln3uSTpDCsze2tjH83dfIB4%26m%3DcQ0FewXBsv1PnNSwMM0tTQf7JMrS2FtXWW8TsP42SwM%26s%3DYNX_aIgGqHb3LES1sfD-R9vpc1cKcDK1NwGg8E97Zuo%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C82482e81cdcb4b4746a508d5627cf17e%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523211133590366&sdata=ZdyWrGNLOgiadYrtQ6VgBOa7pFjy3kR3VUNsWz%2Btc2A%3D&reserved=0> ? From: Paul Julian [mailto:p...@oxygennetworks.com.au] On Behalf Of paul+mai...@oxygennetworks.com.au<mailto:paul+mai...@oxygennetworks.com.au> Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 1:45 PM To: Michael Wise <michael.w...@microsoft.com<mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com>>; 'Edgaras | SENDER' <edga...@sender.net<mailto:edga...@sender.net>> Cc: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>; 'Tim Starr' <timstar...@gmail.com<mailto:timstar...@gmail.com>> Subject: RE: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook Hi Michael, Is there a reason why unused or newly allocated blocks seem to be automatically blocked for Outlook/Hotmail ? We were recently allocated a new /22 for customers and every one of the customers who uses their own mailserver is getting blocked by MS, no spamming no history just blocked. I realise that some systems work on reputation, but how can you get a good reputation if you can’t send the email in the first place ? Is there some reason why whole blocks are just blocked by MS ? this seems to be the case with us. What can network operators do to alleviate this problem for our customers ? The customers look to us for a resolution as their provider, but apart from request that an address gets unblocked there is nothing more we can do, and unfortunately they don’t see it that way. It’s unreasonable for us to think that we have to put in 1024 requests to get IP’s unblocked, which would all be rejected for mitigation initially, then you have to reply to the email and request again to have a chance of it being unblocked, that seems to be about a 50% hit rate for us. Any thoughts on how to resolve this issue in a more efficient way would really be greatly appreciated. Thanks Paul From: Michael Wise [mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com] Sent: Friday, 12 January 2018 6:31 AM To: Edgaras | SENDER; Paul Julian Cc: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>; Tim Starr Subject: RE: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook "Pre-emptive Accommodation" is, I believe, the correct term. And yes, it does help if it's before traffic actually starts. Glad it got unblocked. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttp-253A-252F-252Fwww.microsoft.com-252Fen-2Dus-252Fdownload-252Fdetails.aspx-253Fid-253D18275-26data-3D02-257C01-257CMichael.Wise-2540microsoft.com-257Cd2fd8eef69894b3a34fc08d5593c4cb7-257C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47-257C1-257C0-257C636513037899855881-26sdata-3DYZs1vWg6oiSi8L8dWYiXQwYJN5G5jMBZICgYVIHRabI-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3DjCodoQuqQeb4ZiFmcv2Hln3uSTpDCsze2tjH83dfIB4%26m%3DcQ0FewXBsv1PnNSwMM0tTQf7JMrS2FtXWW8TsP42SwM%26s%3DIBqOG8aFtM8JxWYHtYKd0RcmMOdwIWI0PI4ybV4oTko%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C82482e81cdcb4b4746a508d5627cf17e%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523211133590366&sdata=5kEQFHNk1bFzG8i1hXjAmW9%2FAKsjJOyyQRJuqV5Z1nE%3D&reserved=0> ? From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Edgaras | SENDER Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2018 12:18 AM To: Paul Julian <p...@oxygennetworks.com.au<mailto:p...@oxygennetworks.com.au>> Cc: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>; Tim Starr <timstar...@gmail.com<mailto:timstar...@gmail.com>>; Edgaras | SENDER <edga...@sender.net<mailto:edga...@sender.net>> Subject: Re: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook Update: after submitting the form for the 3rd time, it seems that the IP got unblocked at last. By the way, asking for "new IP space" form did not work. Regards, [Image removed by sender. Sender] Edgaras Vaitkevičius edga...@sender.net<mailto:edga...@sender.net> +370 627 60923 On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 2:01 AM, Paul Julian <p...@oxygennetworks.com.au<mailto:p...@oxygennetworks.com.au>> wrote: We have had the same problems with Microsoft for some time now with a new block we have, every IP is getting blocked for no reason, they say they have unblocked them and they still treat received emails from those IP’s as spam. They won’t unblock the whole subnet either. Not sure what else you can do, and the problem is the customer sees it as your problem when it’s Microsoft being over sensitive or something. Paul From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org<mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org>] On Behalf Of Tim Starr Sent: Thursday, 11 January 2018 10:42 AM To: Edgaras | SENDER Cc: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: Re: [mailop] Weird problems with mitigation at Hotmail/Outlook We've been having the same experience for months now. Not always, but way too often. -Tim On Fri, Jan 5, 2018 at 4:29 AM, Edgaras | SENDER <edga...@sender.net<mailto:edga...@sender.net>> wrote: Hi, 2 days ago one of our IPs started getting an AS3150 block when sending to Hotmail/Outlook. Which is very weird, as complaint rate and bounce rate are way below what Outlook publishes as their official requirements. After submitting their delivery support form, we get the automatic email saying that the IP has been mitigated: "Our investigation has determined that the above IP(s) qualify for mitigation. The block has been lifted, and the IP(s) have been granted increased daily sending limits." However, the IP still stays blocked! After replying to that email, we get a copy-paste reply from Outlook.com support saying that "As previously stated, your IP(s) do not qualify for mitigation at this time." ??? Alright, we repeat the process the next day, with the same results - initial email says that the IP has been mitigated, that doesn't work and the IP is still blocked, and Outlook.com support says that the IP is not eligible for mitigation. Asking to escalate to T3 did nothing. Has someone else experienced this? What to do in this situation? P.S. if anyone from Outlook/Hotmail are here, here is the ticket number: SRX1410467394ID. I would greatly appreciate any help or insight into this. Regards, [Image removed by sender. Sender] Edgaras Vaitkevičius edga...@sender.net<mailto:edga...@sender.net> +370 627 60923<tel:+370%20627%2060923> _______________________________________________ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com_-3Furl-3Dhttps-253A-252F-252Fchilli.nosignal.org-252Fcgi-2Dbin-252Fmailman-252Flistinfo-252Fmailop-26data-3D02-257C01-257Cmichael.wise-2540microsoft.com-257C262760832ef540d6978b08d558cd6203-257C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47-257C1-257C1-257C636512561500875007-26sdata-3DSR0yRMxSsQtv-252F3L4nd-252FXfnYeMGs3xTK3wCU3k7Kme-252BA-253D-26reserved-3D0%26d%3DDwMGaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3DjCodoQuqQeb4ZiFmcv2Hln3uSTpDCsze2tjH83dfIB4%26m%3DcQ0FewXBsv1PnNSwMM0tTQf7JMrS2FtXWW8TsP42SwM%26s%3D-X6sia6VinSuTwmUj8_S89vhMwPq96F-eqP_A5i6Mho%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C82482e81cdcb4b4746a508d5627cf17e%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523211133590366&sdata=LMr7mbk%2BQ9CyEPiUPSgxH3U0Z7bBD1Fa%2B6uzhFqVQmk%3D&reserved=0> _______________________________________________ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__chilli.nosignal.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_mailop&d=DwIGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=jCodoQuqQeb4ZiFmcv2Hln3uSTpDCsze2tjH83dfIB4&m=cQ0FewXBsv1PnNSwMM0tTQf7JMrS2FtXWW8TsP42SwM&s=AYFCmwPQ9n8PkdKjotE3Lnl5BZfYIGo3mJMqHtGHYzs&e=<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__chilli.nosignal.org_cgi-2Dbin_mailman_listinfo_mailop%26d%3DDwIGaQ%26c%3Djf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg%26r%3DjCodoQuqQeb4ZiFmcv2Hln3uSTpDCsze2tjH83dfIB4%26m%3DcQ0FewXBsv1PnNSwMM0tTQf7JMrS2FtXWW8TsP42SwM%26s%3DAYFCmwPQ9n8PkdKjotE3Lnl5BZfYIGo3mJMqHtGHYzs%26e%3D&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C82482e81cdcb4b4746a508d5627cf17e%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523211133590366&sdata=c5U784KPq5x7Vye0Uox5L3IXnNSSMokCtJ%2F%2B0PMkLQo%3D&reserved=0> Tenzij hierboven anders aangegeven: / Unless stated otherwise above: IBM Nederland B.V. 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