You use the data you’ve got to try and find bad behavior. Bounces are a data point and *sometimes* can lead you down the path of a problem sender. Less and less, that’s for sure, but it’s still a valid point.
laura > On Aug 29, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Michael Wise via mailop <mailop@mailop.org> > wrote: > > > Monitor … yes, most definitely. Especially for bounces indicating that the > addressee is no longer valid, or that you’ve been blocked for whatever reason. > > … for signs of lack of opt-in … > > IMHO, you have that the wrong way around. > > Aloha, > Michael. > -- > Michael J Wise > Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis > "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." > Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool > <http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ? > > From: mailop <mailop-boun...@mailop.org <mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org>> > On Behalf Of David Hofstee > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 2:36 AM > To: Brandon Long <bl...@google.com <mailto:bl...@google.com>> > Cc: mailop <mailop@mailop.org <mailto:mailop@mailop.org>>; Laura Atkins > <la...@wordtothewise.com <mailto:la...@wordtothewise.com>> > Subject: Re: [mailop] Gmail - Anybody out there from Gmail, willing to assist > with strange reputation issue > > > Without confirmed opt-in, you're at the mercy of what random junk people > > happen to stick in there > True, but then the real problem is that the opt-in is invalid. As an ESP you > should evaluate these lists beforehand and monitor for signs of a lack of > opt-in (e.g. high complaint rates by FBL or unsubscribes). Having these > typo's are often good indicators for me to start looking further beforehand. > E.g. a...@hotmail.com <mailto:a...@hotmail.com> is the perfect example of > people not wanting to provide their real email address. > > A double-optin only confirms there was a relationship with some sender at > some point in time. It avoids typo's. However, it does not state with who the > opt-in was, when it was provided, for what content, for what frequency, under > what circumstances and for how long that is valid. It is not watertight at > all. > > Yours, > > > David > > On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 at 00:24, Brandon Long <bl...@google.com > <mailto:bl...@google.com>> wrote: > I would also point out that seeing differences between mailbox providers in > this instance is not really a surprise. It may have more to do with which > random address people use in these situations. They may be choosing Gmail > more than Yahoo for whatever reason, or the address they're choosing at Gmail > may exist and be used, and hence getting spam markings. > > Without confirmed opt-in, you're at the mercy of what random junk people > happen to stick in there, and there's no guarantee that that junk is equally > distributed. > > And as Laura points out, it also depends on what they are getting from the > form. Some forms may get low to zero junk, others are probably mostly > untrusted. > > Brandon > > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 2:28 PM Laura Atkins <la...@wordtothewise.com > <mailto:la...@wordtothewise.com>> wrote: > The difference here is that people may want the quote but not want the > associated email that comes from the company. So they will fill in a “fake” > email address, and one that happens to deliver to some random person. > > Not all subscription forms are alike, and not all subscription forms have the > same risk of wrong addresses. For companies that have a high risk of folks > giving a fake address, like quote sites or download sites or even whitepaper > sites, the site owners need to take steps to protect themselves. > > laura > > > On Aug 28, 2018, at 6:27 AM, David Hofstee <opentext.dhofs...@gmail.com > <mailto:opentext.dhofs...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Hi Otto, > > It is not my experience that many people will fill in other people's email > address. I've seen 100's of millions of subscribers. Most did not have double > opt-in. It mostly went very well. There are cases of form-spam (see e.g. > Spamhaus a few years ago) and double opt-in prevents typo's. But there are > other methods to deal with abuse (in all of its appearances). > > So I'm not sure that your opinion towards double opt-in (where customers not > using it should be seen as spamming) is in line with the numbers I saw. I > understand the push from the anti-spam community (who have issues in > discriminating criminals and commercial senders having equally bad/good data > quality). But this technical solution is, imho, the wrong tool for that. As > Microsoft, Yahoo and Google have found out, feedback from users via alternate > systems is much better. But that is not yet integrated into RFCs for the rest > of us to use. > > I'll leave the "confirmed opt-in" vs "double opt-in" discussion as it is. > > Yours, > > > David > > > On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 at 09:02, Otto J. Makela <o...@iki.fi > <mailto:o...@iki.fi>> wrote: > On 2018-08-23 22:10, Jan Schapmans wrote: > > > * customer doesn’t want to do double optin, we are pushing to only > > implement > > it for gmail & googlemail addresses. > > This should definitely raise red flags at your end: customer doesn't > care about how good the "leads" are, as long as there are many. > This is "Millions CD" level thinking. > > BTW, a much better term is "confirmed opt-in", because that's what it is. > Most companies that want to contact you by email can get it right (send single > email with confirmation link as part of registration etc.), why should your > customer get a special pass not to do it? > > -- > /* * * Otto J. Makela <o...@iki.fi <mailto:o...@iki.fi>> * * * * * * * * * > */ > /* Phone: +358 40 765 5772, ICBM: N 60 10' E 24 55' */ > /* Mail: Mechelininkatu 26 B 27, FI-00100 Helsinki */ > /* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * */ > > _______________________________________________ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org <mailto:mailop@mailop.org> > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchilli.nosignal.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmailop&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Ca2a3bce7dbbe43b69c7f08d60d9483e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636711328861708373&sdata=mredCE5SnuujRcJY6BtPDSJySOoBIdoS8gFmPV%2FhBH0%3D&reserved=0> > > > -- > -- > My opinion is mine. > _______________________________________________ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org <mailto:mailop@mailop.org> > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchilli.nosignal.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmailop&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Ca2a3bce7dbbe43b69c7f08d60d9483e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636711328861718378&sdata=q%2BKUeQT8ZizRhKqwqlLjyw1SiJGtVHTr%2FzXlMsSVBoY%3D&reserved=0> > > -- > Having an Email Crisis? We can help! 800 823-9674 > > Laura Atkins > Word to the Wise > la...@wordtothewise.com <mailto:la...@wordtothewise.com> > (650) 437-0741 > > Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwordtothewise.com%2Fblog&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Ca2a3bce7dbbe43b69c7f08d60d9483e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636711328861718378&sdata=nHMzf3Y9tgjoWLZuGle9lZKuEvlZf%2FHcKTLZejv5LPk%3D&reserved=0> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org <mailto:mailop@mailop.org> > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchilli.nosignal.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmailop&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7Ca2a3bce7dbbe43b69c7f08d60d9483e9%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636711328861728397&sdata=0FVnx%2B4qVnOmZtXkYWI%2F%2FlAZObPb5l6Gh2Zj8NS8OGI%3D&reserved=0> > > > -- > -- > My opinion is mine. > _______________________________________________ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org <mailto:mailop@mailop.org> > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > <https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop> -- Having an Email Crisis? 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