> On 2 Jun 2021, at 10:17, André Peters via mailop <[email protected]> wrote:
[snip] > They _DO_ block whole networks (not just subnets within an AS). > It might not be the case in the example above, but it does happen. I am reasonably familiar with Microsoft’s anti-spam systems and how they work. They do block ranges, and subnets, but anyone claiming that AS(whatever) means that MS is blocking autonomous system number(whatever) is flat out wrong. That is not what that diagnostic code means. > Or silently discarding mail... come on, that's just the worst practice ever. I silently discard mail all the time. No one, absolutely NO ONE, is entitled to my time or attention or mailbox space. That goes double when the mail is actively harmful. If MJW says that shouldn’t be happening in the freemail domains any longer, I believe him. On the O365 side, individual administrators have the ability to discard mail on their own systems for their own domains. Neither you nor I have any right to tell those administrators they cannot do that. Not our systems, not our rules. Look, Microsoft has tons of flaws. They have an aggressive blocking system that upsets a lot of senders. They have stupid rules and implementations that I don’t think do what they think they do or even what they’re intended to do. I think the system has accreted and evolved to a point where not even the folks inside Microsoft can tell you why a mail was delivered where it was. I mean, that’s been true for more than a decade now. It’s not, somehow, that the folks answering sender support mail won’t tell you, it’s that they can’t tell you. I suspect that even the system developers couldn’t tell you exactly why a mail went to bulk or was discarded or was rejected. Machine Learning filters (and it’s all ML filters these days) simply don’t work that way. With that being said, they try to help senders, much more than a lot of other mailbox providers. They were the first company to offer data directly to Senders (SNDS). They were one of the first groups to offer FBLs. They are the ONLY group I am aware of that actually asks their users directly whether or not their spam filters are doing things right in that user’s mailbox. Not some random ‘do you like our filters’ but a specific pop up window that says to a user: "We put this email in your spam folder (or inbox). Did we get this right?" It is phenomenally hard for a new sender to break into the MS inbox. For client reasons I ended up doing a bunch of tests yesterday and the first mail from my IP went to bulk. I hit ’this is not spam’ and the second mail from that same IP and sender combination went to the inbox. The third email from a different sender but the same IP went to spam. That’s basically what I needed to know so I stopped testing at that point. Yeah, Microsoft hates low level senders. Microsoft hates new IPs. Complaining on mailop isn’t actually going to change anything about that. Complaining to the developers over beer in the pub isn’t going to change that. Complaining to the product managers isn’t going to change that. O365 is widely used and we’re stuck with it. The free domains are less widely used than Gmail but they’re still in the top 5 per volume for most mailing lists. A few additional facts: SmartScreen is partially based on the above mentioned ‘did we filter this mail correctly’ questions. It’s also based on user complaints. It’s based on the content of the mail, it is unrelated to IP or even domain reputation. Call it stupid all you want but the reality is: Smart Screen is a measure of how much recipients want a particular email stream. If they’re saying they don’t want it, then Microsoft is going to listen to what their users tell them. Some of the measurements are based on explicit user questions, others are based on user interactions with mail. Filters are not static, they are adjusting all the time. Sometimes ‘just keep trying’ is the right thing to do. Sometimes ‘give it a rest for a week (or 2 or 3) and let your reputation reset’ is the right thing to do. Sometimes it feels like there is nothing the sender can do to change delivery. MS users and MS policy makers are about the only folks who are going to be able to change what MS is doing. It sucks for those of us who are looking at the mail in our outbound queues and going ‘yknow, this person paid for this email and MS isn’t letting me deliver it” or “this person probably really wants their appointment reminder, but MS isn’t letting me deliver it” or “Auntie susie really wants to hear from cousin joan, sucks microsoft doesn’t like this” but complaining on mailop isn’t going to change any of that. If complaining on mailop fixed MS filters, then they would have been fixed a decade ago. We’ve been having this same discussion for that long. laura -- Having an Email Crisis? We can help! 800 823-9674 Laura Atkins Word to the Wise [email protected] (650) 437-0741 Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog
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