<x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type><!DOCTYPE
HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3
HTML//EN"><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In response to Jim Farrow and Diane Thompson:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> I would greatly appreciate sources for the later dating of them</DIV>
<DIV>>...........</DIV>
<DIV>>A lot has been done on Dares since,<BR>>especially in Germany. The
one name I can remember off the top of my head is<BR>>Willy Schetter, but
there are others too writing in the early 1990's.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>> ..........</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>>As for Dares, the problems are more complex. The atrocious Latin text
as we<BR>>have it now is from anywhere between the 4th and 7th century AD,
but it may be<BR>>a poor epitome of an earlier and better
translation.<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#000000>You may want to take a
look in A. BESCHORNER, <EM>Untersuchungen zu Dares Phrygius </EM> (Diss.
München. Tübingen 1992. Classica Monacensia 4). I do not have the
book
at hand right away, but if I'm not mistaken, Beschorner dismisses a 'Greek
Dares' as well as an earlier longer Latin version. He thinks that the
<EM>Exidium</EM> was conceived as a parody on the <EM>Iliad </EM>(hence the
"atrocious Latin" - it wouldn't be a parody otherwise, would it?),
which in fact was a mere exercise<EM> </EM>by a student of rhetorics that
somehow got into circulation out of the classroom. Very convincing! Beschorner
also adds an annotated facsimile of Meister's 1873 (!)
edition.</FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=3></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>> I argued that Dictys was probably forged during or<BR>>close
to
the 90's AD, a generation or so after the purported "discovery"
date<BR>>in Nero's time & close to such other literary fantasies as
Ptolemy Chennos'<BR>>"Kaine Historia" and the "Wonders beyond
Thule" by Antonius Diogenes.<BR>>I'm still working on the problem, and
have been since the 1970's when I was an<BR>>undergraduate. Good
luck!<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A very useful book, though not too recent, on Dictys is: <FONT
size=3><FONT
face=Arial><FONT color=#000000>S. MERKLE, <EM>Die Ephemeris belli Troiani des
Diktys von Kreta</EM> (Studien zur klassischen Philologie 44. Frankfurt a.M.
etc. 1989). Merkle by the way shares Jim's opinion: he dates the Greek text
shortly after Nero's reign, and the Latin translation in the 2nd half of the
4th
cy.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face=Arial><FONT
color=#000000></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#000000>Best
regards,</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000><FONT face=Arial><FONT
size=3>Gert.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
</x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Feb 03 22:18:42 1999
Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Received: from midway.uchicago.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [128.135.12.12])
by plaisance.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA17669;
Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:28:28 -0600 (CST)
Received: from wilsoninet.com ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [192.41.8.139]) by
midway.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA21583; Wed, 3 Feb 1999
18:28:24 -0600 (CST)
Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id RAA05319; Wed, 3 Feb
1999 17:18:48 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Gert De Ceukelaire" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Vergilius" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: VIRGIL: Aeneas/Traitor
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 01:18:04 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0084_01BE4FDC.36D54AE0"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-UIDL: f484bb2476df6c8f45239f99338b66a5
<x-html><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type><!DOCTYPE
HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV>In reply to:</DIV>
<DIV><BR>>Actually I'd be very interested to hear how Jacob van Maerlant
reconciled<BR>>the Dares/Dictys tradition with the Vergilian tradition, and
I
don't think<BR>>it's irrelevant to Mantovano at all. I'm sorry I can't
help you with your<BR>>other question, but won't you tell us more about
Maerlant's reconciling of<BR>>the two
traditions?<BR>>Thanks,<BR>>Randi
Eldevik<BR>>Oklahoma State University <BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You would want to take Harm-Jan Van Dam's advice: Jongen's dissertation
deals extensively with the problem (the book contains an abstract in French).
But if the language is a problem (which it usually is - we do realise that
Dutch
is not really an international language) it might be a good idea to read
'Achilles as Anti-Hero. A Thirteenth-Century Middle Dutch View of the Fall of
Troy' (Amsterdammer Beiträge zur älteren Germanistik 40 (1994), p.
111-129), by the same author. The article is in fact an extended abstract in
English of Jongen's dissertation, but I'm not sure if it also deals with the
Dares/Dictys/Virgil problem.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Anyway, here it is in a nutshell: Maerlant follows his main source, the
Old
French Roman de Troie by Benoit de Ste-Maure (which is itself an adaptation of
the Dares and Dictys accounts) fairly closely, up to the point where a number
of
council meetings in and around Troy lead up to the fall of the city (in fact
Benoit contaminated the Dares and the Dictys account, which however did not
bother Maerlant). Maerlant translates this part too, but carefully omits all
references to Aeneas' and Antenor's treason. When finally it comes to the final
climax, he assigns Calchas as the one who devises the guile with the wooden
horse, and from this point onwards follows Virgil (A II, 13 ff). So Maerlant
replaced one traitor with another, for in the Dares-tradition Calchas was
originally a Trojan who defected to the Greeks at the very onset of the Trojan
war. In fact Calchas contributes to the success of the Greeks right from his
arrival in the Greek camp, so it seems logical to have him add the final touch.
All this can be found in Jongen' s dissertation (almost at the same time I
arrived at the same conclusions in my licentiate's (BA) thesis, but it is not
customary to publish this kind of work). Jongen left some questions unanswered
however, which I have tried and am still trying to answer, e.g. why didn't
Maerlant omit the council meetings altogether, which would have made things
much
easier; are there any Latin sources in which Calchas is the one that's guilty
of
the Fall of Troy; how does Maerlant's choice affect the Historie van Troyen as
a
whole; etc... All these questions lead up to the main question: why did
Maerlant
believe the version of Dares, which was throughout the Middle Ages the
'official' version of the Fall of Troy, not to be true; <EM>or</EM>, more
importantly: did he <EM>really</EM> believe they weren't true? In fact I think
he didn't, but these final questions relate to the fairly intangible concept of
'(historical) truth' in the Middle Ages and therefore take the matter far
beyond
the purpose of this discussion group, which is why I did not go into all this
in
the first place. I hope, however, that this short résumé of the
facts can satisfy your interest. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gert.</DIV></BODY></HTML>
</x-html>From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Feb 03 22:19:07 1999
Return-Path: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Received: from midway.uchicago.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [128.135.12.12])
by plaisance.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA23622;
Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:20:55 -0600 (CST)
Received: from wilsoninet.com ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [192.41.8.139]) by
midway.uchicago.edu (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id VAA20000; Wed, 3 Feb 1999
21:20:51 -0600 (CST)
Received: ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) by wilsoninet.com (8.8.5) id UAA14223; Wed, 3 Feb
1999 20:05:12 -0700 (MST)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 22:00:12 EST
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: VIRGIL: Reading the Aeneid
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 205
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Precedence: bulk
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-UIDL: f0a6459d8a832659679bbbb0f6d486b8
I am reading the Aeneid and am in search of tools which will assist my
reading. I do not like cliff notes, I find them useless. Rather, I am
looking for guided questions or outlines for the various books of the Aeneid.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.
Jenny
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
To leave the Mantovano mailing list at any time, do NOT hit reply.
Instead, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the message
"unsubscribe mantovano" in the body (omitting the quotation marks). You
can also unsubscribe at http://virgil.org/mantovano/mantovano.htm#unsub
