Thanks Gerry.

I must admit that I was mostly annoyed with Ed for what appeared to me as spreading FUD, and my comments (or lack thereof) reflect that. I find your summary targeted at the real issues at hand here, so perhaps it was just the length of Ed's comments that obscured their intent.

It is possible that I am being naive in trusting that ADSKs commitment is sincere, but I don't think so. I certainly don't think there is any conspiracy to undermine the community, especially as that conspiracy would have to involve all the members of the MTSC ...

Cheers

Paul


On 29-Nov-05, at 11:31 AM, Gerry Creager N5JXS wrote:

Paul,

I hate to have to add fuel to the fire, but I feel I need to comment.

Ed's comments were lengthy, but you managed to dismiss them in a single sentence. However, he's on-target about several key points.

I recall, at the last MUM, the comments about a closed group to better guide future releases. However, in general, the process has maintainted the appearance of openness and bugs were readily discussed, as were feature additions. This may, in retrospect, have announced the initial closure of the organization.

Mapserver has been a stellar community effort. Locking down the group, creating the Foundation, and springing it on this same Community, has had a chilling effect. Yesterday, with the initial announcement, I was excited. Today, having read the Open Letter more closely, and the press releases, I now share the concerns Ed so eloquently articulated. I can't effect significant change on the Foundation. My University can't effect significant change... I don't see a mechanism for my University to participate, save as a user.

I've been involved in organizations who morphed in this manner before, and unfortunately, it's usually resulted in the organization being taken over by the corporate partners. There are shining examples of this not happening: OGC's roots are in corporate sponsorship but they've been refreshingly non-partisan... although there's a tendancy to reflect a product as being OGC compliant when it meets some subset of the testing... and the rather staggering costs associated with official compliance testing: Mapserver's not been tested recently, as I recall, for this very reason.

I, too, object to the terms "Mapserver [insert favorite animal here]" and "Mapserver Enterprise" as the impression is the tool I have been using so successfully, the one I've been promoting to my ESRI-using colleagues, and where I've demonstrated often equal or better performance, is a toy, and this newly advertised addition, somewhat largish and hard to downlaod and implement initially, is better, more secure, has an improved pedigree and is a real "enterprise-ready" (note: ISO-9002 buzzword-compliant) product. Oh... and yes, let's capitalize on the term Mapserver.

So: I'm frustrated. This isn't directed at you, Paul, but more at the process and the participants who elected to keep this process a secret from the Community whove been supportive in the past. A Community that would likely benefit from this concept in the future. But not a Community likely to benefit from an advertising exercise for pure corporate gain. I work for a University, and I have several projects that depend on this technology. I can't make money off it. I can support its development periodically, and I can provide thoughts and suggestions. But where's the benefit for me if I can't implement the product most likely to see the improvements, and if I cannot create the working files for that package because it requires a computer operating system that has been deemed unsafe in our environment? No, Virginia, I don't have a spare Windows workstation.

I don't know how to resolve this, or who will. I do know I'm disappointed at how all this came about, and my inability to effect change.

Respectfully,
Gerry Creager

Paul Spencer wrote:
Puneet,
re legal indemnification, I don't think the intention is for Autodesk
to provide that (directly).  Autodesk is funding the creation of a
separate legal entity (think Apache Foundation) and that legal entity
will be tasked with determining what it will provide and how.
Lowell, thanks for the support ...
Ed, I'm sorry that you feel this way but you certainly have the right
to express your opinion ...
Cheers
Paul
On 29-Nov-05, at 12:23 AM, Puneet Kishor wrote:
I must underscore that I am not alluding to any conspiracy of any
sort. I am only alluding to the facts that --

1. Putting commercial entries as sponsors of opensource, Autodesk
or any other, in the manner that it seems like in the case of
MapServer, takes something away from the grassroots community
aspect of it all. DMS is fairly innocuous here, and I have little
reason to doubt them. I have known them for several years, and some
of them are my friends. Others may rightly or wrongly feel
differently. I can certainly understand Ed's point of view given
his position as a business owner of a similar scale. But, does
Autodesk being in the fray preclude, antagonize, or even attract
other similar sized commercial entities? How will ESRI or
Intergraph or Mapinfo or even Oracle and/or Microsoft (all with
interests in GIS and mapping) react?

2. The nomenclature does make it seem like the real MapServer has
gotten the short shrift. First there was 'classic' or 'lite.' Then
came 'professional.' Now Enterprise seems to be all the rage. I
could imagine M2EE (MapServer 2 Enterprise Edition), but MapServer
Cheetah just doesn't have the same feel other than providing a
convenient pencil cover art for the next O'Reilly mapping-made-easy
edition. It does seem like Autodesk is making out here on the
goodwill established by MapServer. If not a fork of the source, it
certainly will be a fork of the energies. I highly doubt the same
folks will be able to contribute to both causes with equal vigor.

On the other hand, yes, legal indemnification might be worthwhile
attraction. Does Autodesk really provide that? To what extent? I
haven't done my due diligence on all aspects of the deal.



Lowell.Filak wrote:

Just as a side-note I can't envision UMN, DM Solutions, & Autodesk
lumped together in the discussion. While I understand the points
made and responsibility must be shouldered. I also know that DM
Solutions & UMN has always put Mapserver first.
I think Steve alluded to the legal protection aspect that comes
with Autodesk. Wasn't it a couple of years ago that a copyright
holder threatened to sue the world of internet mapping? We thought
it was a joke but...
Is it possible that DMS & UMN felt the need (pressure) to do it
NOW (aka. our next generation app is ready and we need to beat
Goliath to market or else we pull out of negotiations)?
Lowell
Puneet Kishor writes:

Greetings all (and Ed). I re-joined the list today on coming
across the Autodesk newsblurb. My immediate feeling was, "If you
can't beat 'em..." The "you" was Autodesk, and "'em" was you-know-
who. That was followed by a little bit of giddyness, as it meant
that my beloved MapServer was going high profile. I immediately
darted off a congratulatory note to the pater of MapServer. But,
the feeling has worn off; and Ed's very thoughtful (and wordy)
note below has reinforced some of the diffidence that I feel.
First, I do feel that MapServer seems to get the second place
here. Everyone and their janitor wants "Enterprise." This Cheetah
bullshit ain't gonna work. Makes MS-C look sound like a hobby-kit.
Second, Autodesk gets a big, free PR thing out of it, and it
doesn't even work on a Mac... I mean, give me a break.
I am all for the foundation, have been from the day I chimed in
my support at Ottawa... we all wanted to know where to send the
check of support, and a foundation would have been such a recipient.
This foundation is a bit of a squib, unless one's shilling for
Autodesk.
That said, I am not as pessimistic as Ed might sound... yes,
there never will be another "founder" other than those involved,
and yes, personally, I would rather think of UMN as a founder
instead of any other commercial entity. But, the key is to find a
way out/around this, and get the MapServer brand as de-
commercialized as possible.
And, for heaven's sake, lets get the Enterprise moniker.
Ed McNierney wrote:

Folks -
This morning I sent a few comments about the MapServer Foundation
off-list to Steve Lime, and (at my request) he forwarded them on
to some
of the other folks involved.  After a comments by a few folks
there were
requests that I post my messages to the broader community.  This
post is
an attempt to do that in a consolidated way. I apologize for being
wordy, but there's a lot to say.
I've been a member of the MapServer "community" for several
years now.
The Foundation project is the first time I can ever recall there
being a
conscious, ongoing, and deliberate attempt to exclude most of the
community from a discussion of significance about MapServer.  A
small
number of people - some of whom are dedicated developers who've
contributed far more than I ever have - decided to enter into
discussions that included two commercial firms (DM Solutions and
Autodesk).  No one else got to participate, and the work was
deliberately kept secret.  Doesn't sound like much of an "open"
project
to me.
A MapServer Foundation is a very, very good idea.  This MapServer
Foundation has gotten off to a very, very bad start.  I find
myself in
the position of being quite reluctant to support this instance of a
concept I eagerly wish to support.
I think I should start by explaining why I think a MapServer
Foundation
is a very good idea (as opposed to what others think, even
though we
generally seem to agree).  MapServer has been well-served by the
technical and development community that supports it.  It has
mainly
lacked many of the things that make a "program" a "product".  It
needs
better documentation, easier setup and sample sites, product
summaries
and literature, feature/benefit brochures and comparisons,
benchmarking
tests, presentations, a coordinated trade show/conference plan,
better
marketing, directories of consultants, reference sites, etc.  I
don't
mean to denigrate any of the efforts made along any of these
lines, but
I think we all know there are things you can currently get from
commercial vendors that aren't available with MapServer.  A
Foundation
would be a great way to provide these things.  It wouldn't need
to get
in the way of the development work, and could complement it by
filling
in the blanks.
All of that takes money.  A MapServer Foundation needs funding
to do
these things.  Fortunately, there are several subsets of the
MapServer
community that are in a position to contribute funding. There are commercial users of MapServer (folks like me, GlobeXplorer, etc.),
commercial developers/consultancies like DM Solutions and
others, and
the government and educational users who tend to not have much
money to
spend but can usually contribute something.
To date, organizations interested in financial support for
MapServer
have been limited to funding specific software development
tasks.  The
pace of that development has been such that every time I raise
an idea
about a project TopoZone could fund, it seems that someone else has
gotten there first.  I could have chipped in money for "future
development", but there was no place to put it - it didn't make
sense to
just send Frank or Daniel or Steve a check and tell them to try
to spend
it somehow.  And I would rather fund the "other stuff" than fund
feature
development - there's more of a need for it.  A Foundation could
fix
that, by providing a place that takes in revenue from members and
sponsors, and uses that revenue to fund projects - probably
non-development projects as I mentioned above, since those won't
get
funded otherwise.  The OGC membership model is a relevant and
simple
example of this sort of thing.
So what does the Foundation need to do that?  It needs to be
open and
inclusive, eligible to all to participate as peers or as peers
within
certain classes of membership.  It needs to be independent of any
particular sponsor, and it also needs to APPEAR to be
independent.  It
needs to have a clear mission and it needs to simplify and clarify
things for its members and for its constituent base.  It needs
to be
seen as the unswerving voice dedicated to the support of
MapServer and
nothing else.
Today's announcement missed those goals by a wide mark.  Some of
those
errors can be corrected, but some we'll have to live with
forever.  And
most of them could have been avoided by the kind of open, inclusive discussion we've always had in the MapServer community - until now.
Supporting the MapServer Foundation is a great PR and marketing
opportunity.  It appears that Autodesk and DM Solutions were
extremely
aware of that, and made sure that they didn't have to share that
opportunity with anyone else.  Being a "founder" is very
important, and
you've already seen Autodesk and DM Solutions take advantage of
that
through their own press releases today.  No other company will
*ever*
get that chance - the press doesn't really care about the next few
companies to sign on.  When I created TopoZone in 1999, it was
incredibly important to be the first topographic map site on the
Web,
because the PR value was so great.  I suspect very few folks
remember
who launched the second one....
Companies will be attracted to sponsor the Foundation because of
that PR
value.  Unfortunately, that value's gone and nothing will get it
back.
I'm certainly a potential financial supporter of the Foundation,
but I'm
also running a business. I can't simply give money away, but I can
spend it on things that give me PR and marketing value.  I could
spend a
pretty substantial (for me) sum as an annual commitment to the
Foundation.  I am now a *lot* less inclined to provide that
support to
this Foundation, because the value (in PR and marketing terms) is a
whole lot less than it would have been if I could have been
invited to
the party.  I'm certainly welcome to sign on and take a seat
right up
near the front - as long as it isn't in the front row.
I don't say that because I'm personally miffed at being excluded
- I'm
just TopoZone.  I say that because we'll never know how many
firms and
how much financial support could have been raised if someone had
tried
to solicit input and support in an open, inclusive way.  There
are lots
of us out here.  I've been told that it's "incredibly important"
that
the Foundation be seen as vendor-neutral and that it not be at
the mercy
of a single funder's contributions.  Sounds good, but don't tell
me that
now - those are both reasons to solicit a larger number of
contributing
founding members rather than selling the whole package to Autodesk.
It's not easy to undo that; the Foundation is clearly already
seen as an
Autodesk initiative by the press (in part because Autodesk has
tried to
make that point clear) and not many firms are interested in
throwing
money at Autodesk - they've got more of it than I do.
My second huge concern is the branding/product lineup for the
Foundation.  I woke up this morning to two MapServers where we
had one
before.  One of them has the impressive-sounding name "MapServer
Enterprise" while the other is currently named after a large
pussycat
but may or may not be open to the possibility of being named
after a
different mammal.  There's no doubt in the potential customer's
mind
which one is the grown-up, field-tested, production-ready,
scalable,
capable system. Unfortunately, they're thinking of the wrong one.
Branding really matters.  It's very important.  Tyler Mitchell
says so,
too, on the new MapServer site.  Autodesk has zillions of people
who
know that very, very well.  They just bought a great brand and
MapServer
suddenly managed to take a back seat to itself, something I
would have
thought anatomically impossible. They've managed to appropriate a
well-respected brand name and take center stage with it.
Autodesk's
press release takes advantage of that ambiguity by introducing
Steve
Lime as the "creator of MapServer" without saying which one they're
talking about!  Speaking of press releases, in an effort like
this it is
common for all founding members to see and sign off on each other's
press releases in advance, something which appears (from some
developer
comments) to not have happened here. This is PR 101 stuff - if you don't try to keep what you're doing a secret, you might get helpful
advice.
The same is true, by the way, about the questions raised on
Autodesk's
patent policy.  This should NOT be an open question *after* the
announcement - Autodesk's patent portfolio and their defense of
it are
well-known.  It should have been one of the first questions
raised and
answered.  Once the Foundation's plans were made public it only
took a
few hours to bring it to everyone's attention - remember the
benefits of
open development?
The "MapServer Enterprise" product just got inserted into the
MapServer
family by decree. Customers know very well that when they see two
similar products side-by-side, usually due to a merger or
acquisition,
they sit back and wait to see which one gets killed off.  This
usually
has the effect of discouraging adoption of BOTH products, because
customers don't know which one to implement and don't want to
make the
wrong choice. Believe me, I've been a CTO standing up in front of
customers in that situation more than once - they don't believe
you can
serve two masters, and they're right.
Does the Apache Foundation offer two Web servers?  Apache
Enterprise and
Apache Other?
Can't kill off MapServer, you say?  Perhaps not in a technical
sense,
but if there's a MapServer Foundation and a MapServer
Enterprise, who's
going to notice if that other thingy doesn't get the same amount of attention? Perhaps the platypus is indeed a good choice, as it may
belong with the nearly-extinct monotremes.  You can't kill the
MapServer
code, but you can certainly kill the brand.  Please don't
confuse the
two.
Why was the Foundation "announced" when it apparently doesn't
actually
exist?  It seems like today's announcement was designed
primarily to
maximize the PR value to DM Solutions and Autodesk - after all, the
press got briefed about it before the rest of us did.  As far as
I can
tell, there isn't any foundation, but when we get one it's going
to be
great and open to all, because DM Solutions and UMN and Autodesk
have
all assured each other that it will be.  Each time I hear that
"now's
the time to participate", I cringe because I'm being told that
by the
exclusive group who deliberately prevented all of us from
participating
until they decided they had gotten what they needed out of it
and it's
now OK to let the rest of us inside.  The time to participate
was last
week, or last month, before anything got announced and before we
were
all handed the Foundation.  If the Foundation is really a
genuinely open
opportunity for us, then tell us that the inclusion of Autodesk's
product isn't non-negotiable.  Do the rest of us get to insert
MapServer-branded products whenever we want to?
All of these problems were preventable.  All it would have taken
was an
open discussion of the proposal.  You get a lot of people
spouting off,
and then you find out who's really interested.  You find out how
many
commercial sponsors you can get and at what level of support. You create what appears to the public as a truly open consortium that's
worth watching, instead of one that triggers discussions about
Autodesk.
You demonstrate right from the start that you have a broad base of
commercial support, with commercial firms from the USA, Canada,
Europe,
South America, Australia, etc.  What was the perceived benefit of
keeping the process secret and exclusive?  Did someone threaten
to pick
up their marbles and go home?  You can often be surprised at how
many
folks are willing to contribute their own marbles when something
like
that happens - but you never know until you ask.
The MapServer community really needs a Foundation to support it
and to
keep the product healthy and growing.  There are many examples
of the
creation of such consortia to draw from, both inside of and
outside of
the Open Source community.  It doesn't appear those examples were
considered.  We really need a MapServer Foundation - I'm not at
all sure
that we need this one.
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|Paul Spencer                           [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
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|Applications & Software Development                              |
|DM Solutions Group Inc                 http://www.dmsolutions.ca/|
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--
Gerry Creager -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University        
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.847.8578
Page: 979.228.0173
Office: 903A Eller Bldg, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843

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|Paul Spencer                           [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
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|Applications & Software Development                              |
|DM Solutions Group Inc                 http://www.dmsolutions.ca/|
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