On Sat, Feb 23, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton <[email protected]> wrote: > At the ASF, 72 hours is a *minimum* time. And it is polite to step past > known holidays and weekends as well. > > There needs to be some clarification here on how Apache projects do not have > designated teams and voting is something that happens after extensive > discussion (both on the dev list). The goal is consensus and unanimous > consent. > > Voting, when necessary, is accomplished by a particular ballot procedure, > and there has been no such thing here. > > I am offering a procedural objection. Your concerns about timing and other > matters are fine, but the process appears to be out of line. >
Dennis, you should be more precise about what exactly you are objecting to. For instance, Samer made no mention about voting in his proposal. So your concern about lack of a "particular ballot procedure" appears to be misdirected. -Rob > - Dennis > > PS: Personally, it strikes me as odd to make schedule-driven arguments on an > Apache project. "Rush" and similar urgency seem out of character. It is > not the calendar that it inflexible, it is resources and their self-selected > contributions. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Samer Mansour [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 09:36 > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: Branding Refresh For AOO 4.0 [Closing in 72hrs] > > Hey Everyone, > > Let me first admit I felt Saturday (72 hrs) was short, but at the same time > necessary. I expected someone would have said "Wait I volunteer to make a > proposal but I just don't have enough time in the next few days." > > On date and rush: > The date that floated for design assets to be ready for consumption is > April 4th, 2013 which is 40 days from this writing. We all would like to > have the refresh integrated into the RCs, where applicable. What I've seen > produced in the last two months has been more than the previous 10 months > and is amazing work. If we pick something and just do it, I think we can > make the 04/04 target. Our volunteers are very eager to start. > > On Voting: > I asked for comments into the wiki's so that everyone can proposes ideas > even if they are not artistically inclined. I'm relatively new to the > community so I'm not sure what warrants a vote or how a change like in this > particular situation is incorporated into the product, its not code to be > checked in per say, but it is an asset. > > On Flex: > Our community's make up is a little different. We have everyday students > and diverse work industries using our product. Flex's community by nature > is more exposed to designers. I would be horrified to find flex's > community had anything less than an amazing site. Having said that I would > totally be okay with approaching the flex community and asking humbly that > we could use some help of theirs. Also I think their designer nature > contributed to why they may have had 50 proposals :D > > Moving Forward: > I know this will be a very opinionated activity. I invite anyone who is > passionate about this activity to join the marketing team to help us do the > work and complete the assets. > I need a shed and they give me a purple one, I'm going to have to trust > them. It is easier for me to take the opinion of someone if they did the > work. > > Integration of the team: > I've already seen activity that leads me to believe I'm taking the right > path. Robin proposed a full design and someone suggested the script font > was a little off. Robin agreed, the output now is something +2 agree > with. If more input is given, my good faith says it will converge to a > high percentage of the community's desires, but not necessarily everyone's. > > Samer Mansour > > On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 2:46 AM, Jürgen Schmidt > <[email protected]>wrote: > >> On 2/22/13 1:21 AM, Dave Fisher wrote: >> > >> > On Feb 21, 2013, at 4:02 PM, Dave Fisher wrote: >> > >> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting >> between two lists.) >> >> >> >> Adding back marketing, who are doing wonderful work. >> > >> > Look at http://flex.apache.org/. >> > >> > It might be an inspiration for someone. >> >> I saw the flex one before and was very impressed by the new logo. Maybe >> you can reach out there if some of the designers are interested to help >> us as well. A logo (and more design elements) for a 40 million >> downloaded app should be motivating. >> >> Juergen >> >> > >> > Regards, >> > Dave >> > >> >> >> >> On Feb 21, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Rob Weir wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Dave Fisher <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> On Feb 20, 2013, at 8:13 AM, Samer Mansour wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Hello AOO Dev and Marketing Community, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The main subject of this e-mail is to call for an end date to >> proposals. >> >>>>> In 72hrs (saturday) we will be closing branding proposals. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> - - - - - >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I am heading up the branding effort for the AOO 4.0 release and we >> can >> >>>>> unanimously agree the 4.0 release will be a milestone for our >> community and >> >>>>> users. For this special release the marketing team is taking on the >> effort >> >>>>> to giving us a fresh look. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The marketing team is starting to plot deadlines at the same time as >> the >> >>>>> dev team, the marketing team can't keep proposing ideas forever, we >> >>>>> actually need to do the work to get us there. Specially because >> some dev >> >>>>> efforts require assets from our designers. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> What does that mean? >> >>>>> - We're picking and choosing. Late submissions might not be >> considered >> >>>>> (just the nature of "just do it" sorry). >> >>>>> - Eliminating designs we don't like and smoothing and integrating >> ones we >> >>>>> do like. >> >>>>> - In a week from Saturday we will have a master proposal to present >> for >> >>>>> lazy consensus. (at least that's the plan) >> >>>> >> >>>> I do not think that this can operate as lazy consensus,. it is a >> process that is more opinion based than most. >> >>>> >> >>>> It is possible that the Marketing team can make some discussions, but >> the community may have other preferences. >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> Indeed I assume there would be many opinions. But in the discussion >> >>> that had lead up to this has noted that there are well-established >> >>> design and marketing best practices for logo desgin, and giving some >> >>> trust to those volunteers with knowledge of these disciplines might >> >>> yield a better result that throwing it out to a general vote of 400 >> >>> subscribers to the dev list and their individual non-expert opinions. >> >>> >> >>> Now you could argue that opinions of non-experts is useful, and what >> >>> the general public thinks is important. True, but that is better done >> >>> with an expertly-designed survey of the general public, not by >> >>> bikeshedding on the dev list. >> >> >> >> The opinions of non-experts are useful and that is a fact. This is not >> general public opinion it is the AOO community. An expertly designed > survey >> is often called a BALLOT. Please design one to either validate a single >> decision, or to choose between a few of the designs so that the result is >> not a fait accompli. >> >> >> >> Validation is good. >> >> >> >>> We've kicked the can down the road with regards to a grand contest for >> >>> almost a year now. We're no closer to than we were when we started. >> >>> Do we want to ship 4.0 with a half-assed logo attempt done at the last >> >>> minute? Or do we want to let the marketing experts push this forward. >> >> >> >> Straw man. One year ago we had maybe 2 or 3 logo proposals. Now there >> are several logos and designs proposed and only a few are IMO half-assed. >> Many IMO are excellent! >> >> >> >>> And remember, if someone really doesn't like the output of this >> >>> process, they can object and offer an alternative at any time. But I >> >>> don't think we can force a volunteer, or group of volunteers, to >> >>> pursue a contest versus an approach based on best practices and >> >>> working with a small set of already-active volunteers. >> >> >> >> Three points. >> >> >> >> (1) There is a public solicitation for proposals. These submissions >> must be fairly treated. >> >> >> >> (2) No force is involved. Just a suggestion and a reminder that LAZY >> CONSENSUS should not be assumed. If necessary we can design a ballot on > the >> dev list. >> >> >> >> (3) The only legitimate VETO here is if the Logo and Design selected >> infringed or nearly infringed on another's mark (like one subtly does), or >> if it were somehow foul and offensive in some culture. In that case the >> technical alternative is to choose one of the non-infringing or insulting >> logos or designs. >> >> >> >> A VETO is a "let's discuss this" it must not be a "your work is awful >> take it back." >> >> >> >> This argues that the sooner the community agrees the better. The Apache >> Way is about the flattest hierarchy possible. Decisions are to made >> (validated) on the dev list. >> >> >> >> Thanks and Regards, >> >> Dave >> >> >> >>> >> >>> Regards, >> >>> >> >>> -Rob >> >>> >> >>>> I don't think that we need to be afraid of having a VOTE. Rules can >> be generated and this dev list can tolerate the extra traffic. >> >>>> >> >>>> I participated in a two round vote for Apache Flex. There were over >> 50 entries. Each ballot had 5 votes which allowed people with strong >> opinions to vote for one logo and others who liked many designs could > split >> their vote. >> >>>> >> >>>> (Note this discussion is going to be difficult because we are posting >> between two lists.) >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> How can you help? >> >>>>> - - - - - >> >>>>> - I have design skills! (or I think!) >> >>>>> -> Check out some guidelines and placements of the branding, see >> children >> >>>>> of this cwiki page: >> >>>>> >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+B > rand+Refresh+Project >> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and sketch out some ideas here: >> >>>>> >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+4.x+-+Logo+Explorat > ions >> >>>>> -> They don't have to be complete or polished ideas, ie. you only >> have >> >>>>> ideas for icons and only have 2 hours to create the proposal, >> capture the >> >>>>> main idea but don't worry about detail. >> >>>>> -> Join the marketing mailing list to help us with implementing the >> final >> >>>>> design: >> https://blogs.apache.org/OOo/entry/call_for_marketing_volunteers >> >>>>> >> >>>>> - I don't have design skills?! >> >>>>> -> Go to our wiki and help us by commenting on designs, DO NOT reply >> with >> >>>>> comments about design in these mailing lists. >> >>>>> -> There is about 10 pages and they all could use some feedback in >> the >> >>>>> comments: >> >>>>> >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/Apache+OpenOffice+4.0+B > rand+Refresh+Project >> >>>>> -> I will call for any final discussion on Saturday once the >> deadline has >> >>>>> passed. >> >>>> >> >>>> I have added comments including the volunteer and organization >> hurdles to make certain branding changes. >> >>>> >> >>>> Regards, >> >>>> Dave >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> If you have any concerns about this process reply here. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Do not reply to this e-mail to talk about designs! Go to the wiki >> and add >> >>>>> design comments there! >> >>>> >> >> >> > >> >> >
