Both valid points; round-tripping just might look good from the outside as
a test/demo case, even if more demo than test.


On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Jeffrey Kegler <
[email protected]> wrote:

>  The point may be a bit pedantic, but the "A" in AST stands for
> "abstract", which suggests that some information is lost, and that a
> round-trip from text to text via an AST would not be possible.   On the
> other hand, in current use, "AST" tends to mean simply "syntax tree".  --
> jeffrey
>
> -- jeffrey
>
>  On 12/24/2013 11:48 PM, Ruslan Shvedov wrote:
>
>  On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Durand Jean-Damien <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for this feedback. All of them has been pushed on my todo list,
>> and you will get feedback progressively.
>>
>> Right now, I have fixed the grammar (gcc __extension__ keyword was
>> misplaced) and have released a new version of MarpaX::Languages::C::AST.
>> Which parses successfully the perl-5.18.1 sources, increasing the
>> confidence level on c2ast.pl to a quite high value -;
>>
> Great news; congratulations.
>
>  I just wondered can it be useful if MarpaX::Languages::C::AST had a
> dump() method to re-produce the source C text?
>
>  Such reproduced file would then be shown
>
>    to be the same as the original C (no textual diff, sans whitespace
> perhaps)
>   to do the same (no binary diff perhaps?) as the original C file when
> compiled with the same compiler.
>
>
>  Naive as it is, but hopefully helpful?
>
>
>>
>>  Thanks / JD.
>>
>> Le mercredi 25 décembre 2013 01:08:22 UTC+1, Jeffrey Kegler a écrit :
>>
>>>  As I've said before, I think this C parser is a remarkable new tool,
>>> something that has been needed for decades.  Getting out the last few nits
>>> is annoying, but each of those last few steps adds a surprising amount to
>>> way the user experiences the tool.
>>>
>>> By the way, when I was using it (and I encountered no bugs when using it
>>> to deal with the Marpa source), I did note some things which I thought
>>> might make the tool more "cuddly" from the user's point of view.
>>>
>>> 1.) An option (--stdin?) to accept the pre-processed C source on
>>> standard input.  This makes getting things right with the options easier.
>>> You first get the pre-processor options right, separately.  Then you can
>>> eyeball the pre-processed C to see it's right.  Finally, you work out the
>>> (now far fewer) options to c2ast.  And with a --stdin option, you can do
>>> other things like capture the pre-processed C in a file, for debugging.
>>>
>>> 2.) More error messages on the c2ast.pl options.  In particular, I had
>>> a lot of problems with it "failing" silently when I got the options wrong.
>>> c2ast.pl was not really failing -- it's just that I did not have the
>>> options right.  But I think the option processing in c2ast could be more
>>> helpful.
>>>
>>> 3.) Factor the checking of reserved names into a separate tool, perhaps
>>> c_reserved.pl.  This would make the options even simpler.  Also, I
>>> think a separate c_reserved.pl could then act as an example of the use
>>> of MarpaX::Languages::C::AST for study.
>>>
>>> Thanks, jeffrey
>>>
>>>  On 12/24/2013 02:59 PM, Durand Jean-Damien wrote:
>>>
>>> Damned, c2ast failure on gcc __extension__, ... Will see tomorrow -;
>>> Probably another release of MarpaX::Languages:C::AST when fix found.
>>>
>>>   else if ((!__extension__ ({ size_t __s1_len, ...
>>> --------------------------^
>>>  Uncaught exception from user code:
>>>          at /usr/local/share/perl/5.18.1/MarpaX/Languages/C/AST.pm line
>>> 109.
>>>         MarpaX::Languages::C::AST::Util::logCroak('%s\x{a}Last
>>> position:\x{a}\x{a}%s%s', 'Error in SLIF parse: No lexemes accepted at line
>>> 18736, colum...', 'line:column 18736:27 (Unicode newline count) 18736:27
>>> (\n cou...', '') called at
>>> /usr/local/share/perl/5.18.1/MarpaX/Languages/C/AST.pm line 109
>>>
>>> MarpaX::Languages::C::AST::parse('MarpaX::Languages::C::AST=HASH(0xb392654)',
>>> 'SCALAR(0xa702f78)') called at /usr/local/bin/c2ast.pl line 126
>>>
>>>
>>> Le mardi 24 décembre 2013 19:35:14 UTC+1, Jeffrey Kegler a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>  A blog post sounds good.  More people should know about this issue --
>>>> even if you don't find fixing legacy code to be worth the bother, it *is*
>>>> good to know enough not to write new code with reserved names.  And p5p,
>>>> etc., will then be free to give the current issues in the Perl source
>>>> whatever priority they see as appropriate.
>>>>
>>>> As context, the C standards reserve certain names to the
>>>> "implementation", which means the compiler implementation, including the C
>>>> libraries.  Your own applications and libraries are not allowed to use
>>>> reserved names.  These names were reserved back before namespace issues
>>>> were well understood.  In many cases there are unnecessarily overbroad and
>>>> can be called mistakes, but they are mistakes that we are stuck with.  I
>>>> personally find the bans on E[A-Z0-9]*, is[a-z]* and to[a-z]* all to be
>>>> real nuisance.  If you have a variable named "token", you are using
>>>> reserved namespace, and an implementation upgrade could cause unspecified
>>>> behavior as a result.  Or how about the "stream_state" variable?  Banned --
>>>> str[a-z]* is reserved for new string functions. The GNU docs summarize them
>>>> nicely 
>>>> here<http://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_mono/libc.html#Reserved-Names>
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>> The full list is hard to memorize and C programmers, even at the
>>>> highest skill level, often ignore them.  Before Jean-Damien created it at
>>>> my request, there was (as far as I know) no tool to detect violations.  I
>>>> was aware of these issues, and believed that I was writing Marpa to be
>>>> fully compliant, but c2ast.pl found many issues I'd missed.
>>>>
>>>> So a blog post would be a real service.
>>>>
>>>> -- jeffrey
>>>>
>>>>  On 12/24/2013 07:08 AM, Durand Jean-Damien wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Jeffrey,
>>>>
>>>>  Nice idea, I'll do so, guessing that posting to blogs.perl.org could
>>>> have a better and perhaps more appreciated audience than directly to p5p or
>>>> perlbug (?).
>>>>
>>>> Thanks / JD.
>>>>
>>>> 2013/12/24 Jeffrey Kegler <[email protected]>
>>>>
>>>>>  [ Off-line from the group ] An exercise which might help the Perl
>>>>> community (and in the process bring attention to c2ast), would be to run a
>>>>> c2ast.pl --check reservedNames on the Perl source, and submit it to
>>>>> perl5-porters (or perlbug?).
>>>>>
>>>>> [...] Cleaning up the namespace will be hard -- the Perl source
>>>>> intrudes on the reserved namespace heavily.  And many people may not
>>>>> realize the reason to keep the namespace clean -- it'll seem like a lot of
>>>>> work to deal with something that is not an issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm emailing you direct off-line because you're the obvious
>>>>> first-choice to do this.  If you like the idea, reply back into the main
>>>>> list.  Otherwise, I may throw this open to the list as a "Target of
>>>>> Opportunity".
>>>>>
>>>>> -- jeffrey
>>>>>
>>>>
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