>Hugh Replies!
> Right. Note that the Serb regime represents on the one hand an oppressed
> nation being attacked by imperialism (like Iraq) and on the other an
> oppressor nation with a clear record of fascist Master Race (in this case
> Greater Serb) claims over and against other nations. The one doesn't cancel
> out the other.
"fascist master race"? Since when? The historical record of Serbia including the
building of post war Yugoslavia was hardly based on "fascism" but expropriation of the
bourgeoisie and the creation of a deformed workers state. The destruction of the
Yugoslavian deformed workers state had more to to with all parties in the state
turning to bourgeois nationalism. In fact the closest thing to fascism in the break up
was hardly the SErb version of Nationalism but the Croatian variant including the
rebirth of the Utasha..
>
> (Compare under 2, where we can understand what's happening better if we
> remember the Chinese experience of resisting Japanese imperialism in a
> united front with the fascist butcher Chiang Kai-Shek -- not a popular
> front and not a situation where defence against imperialism required
> ignoring Chiang's butchery within the borders of his nation. It's not too
> great a strain to realize that the class independence required in China is
> a clear analogy to the national independence required in regard to Kosova
> and its need for self-determination. If Chiang (in the present case
> Milosevic) fails to make the struggle against imperialism his highest
> priority, the mobilized people should be able to dump him for treason.)
Tritsky was certainly correct on China. But Kosovo is not China. In fact the arguement
here is posed in the context of defending Serbia without giving one bit of political
support to the Milosevich regime. It is the Serbs who are being attacked by
imperialism and not the Kosovars. In fact the KLA is the fith column of NATO in all of
this.
Dave..
> >We hope that multiethnic militias can stop Serb oppression and unite
> >workers against imperialism. Is this consistent with reality? Well,
> >what else is? The 'reality' of today has been imperialism's revival
> >of old ethnic differences. Only the united working class can overcome
> >these differences in a new 'reality' of socialist federations.
>
Hugh replies!
> This is the weak, because relatively abstract, bit of Dave's argument. He
> abstracts from the reality of a growing popular mobilization on the part of
> the Kosovars that is led by a concrete organization, the KLA. He ignores
> the dynamic development of this group -- forgetting the ubiquity of arms in
> Albania after the uprising last year, and the pressures on a weak minority
> leadership of a great influx of young and oppressed men. Maybe the
> imperialist ties will win out in the absence of an explicit Trotskyist
> leadership so far, but the sitting KLA leadership fucked up by signing the
> Rambouillet cop-out which denied self-determination to Kosova and
> practically ordered the KLA to disarm. This treacherous accord has now been
> disowned by whoever's leading the KLA now, for the obvious reason that
> things are developing by the logic of social forces in historical movement,
> not just the plans laid out in the chancelleries of the imperialist powers.
> And the social forces in movement in Kosova (and stirring a little in
> Serbia) are those of first national liberation and second social justice
> (in terms of consciousness that is, in terms of historical clout the
> opposite holds -- no national justice without social justice ie workers'
> democracy to guarantee it).
What Hugh means with Dave being "abstract" and "weak" in his arguements is that the
Lcmcri are not quite as enthused in tailing the KLA as Hugh's group obviously wants
too. Seems to me that it won't be long and the Morenoites will be shipping and
"Internation brigade" to help the KLA and NATO out against the Serb "fascists"!
> Exactly. And underlying this is the theory of the Permanent Revolution, in
> which the working class must realize what social power is latent in
> democratic demands such as national liberation and make sure they support
> these demands to the hilt while maintaining class independence and a
> capacity to construct workers' solutions to the deeper social problems
> caused by capitalist oppression so that the democratic problems not only
> get addressed and vindicated, but also find a lasting because non-bourgeois
> solution.
The line Hugh represents has nothing to do with permanent revolution. And in fact
Dave's arguements about "multi ethic" militias in a way is more correct if it was
under the banners of workers revolution. However they are not. In fact Dave raises the
militia stuff in the context of their *own* false theory of the anti imperialist
United Front which in the present war leaves them sitting on the fence and trying to
creep out from seeing that the national question is subordinated to the viscious NATO
attack on the Serbs.
> The KLA is no limiting factor on the ability of Serbia to defend itself
> from NATO's aggression.
Oh really! Then what do you think the war was before NATO entered the scene?
<The Serbian forces in Kosova are not defending
> Kosova or the Kosovars against anything, they're occupying it, violating it
> and slaughtering the people. If the Milosevic regime was in the least
> interested in focusing on the battle against NATO imperialism, it would
> immediately change its policy in Kosova, tell both the Serbs and the
> Kosovars what all this is really about, arm the Kosovars and offer its help
> to keep the imperialists out of Kosova. It would also arm the Serbian
> people and help them democratize the defensive battle against NATO. They
> would be able to immediately repel a dozen times more effectively any
> attacks against their factories, bridges, water supplies etc. NATO is
> already making a shocking balls-up of the propoganda battle as it is. Just
> imagine how it would crumble if the Serbian working people took over the
> fight and started telling European and American workers the truth.
But this is hardly the case! And all sides in the break up of the former Yugoslavia
turned to bourgeois nationalism to solves it problems.
>
> All this discussion slamming the Kosovars and their armed struggle for
> self-determination is a bit sick. If the Yugoslavs had listened to it
> during WW2 they would have cuddled up to Stalin because this kind of
> one-dimensional either/or crap is his hallmark. They would have been
> butchered and the Yugoslav revolution would never have succeeded. Neither,
> along similar lines, would the Chinese revolution. They would have gone the
> same way as the Spanish, Greek and (the less well-developed but nonetheless
> similar) Italian revolutions.
Unfortunatel they did listen to Stalin! And the whole idea of building socialism in
one country, peaceful co-existence and all the rest. So the Yugoslavian revolution did
in the final analisis fail and we have the situation that we have today. And the fact
that the Yugoslav and Chinese deformed workers states came to be had nothing to do
with Spain in the 30ties. But the door to these kind of developments
(China-Yugoslavia) repeating themselves has been closed with the final destruction of
the SU.
> Our war is on two fronts and always has been. On the one hand against the
> imperialist bourgeoisie and its direct representatives, and on the other
> against all kinds of treacherous non-revolutionary leaderships within the
> democratic and workers' movements. The war is simultaneous. Bob must be
> schizophrenic, cos he fulminates more than anyone against the risks of
> popular fronts, but forgets it all and goes to pieces when the double
> aggression we are facing becomes manifest.
Bob has not gone crazy. In fact the line on inter-penetrating peoples is quite clear.
And their is no solution to the national question in the Balkans outside of workers
revolution. And we certain do not give Milosevich any political support what so ever.
But we do defend Serbia against imperialist attack including the KLA which is NATO's
fifth column.
As far as fronts it is Hugh that is tailing the KLA who is in a block with the NATO
imperialists Including the call to arm them. Who by the way are getting plenty of guns
from their NATO friens and as of yesterday air cover support. According to the news
here the KLA supposedly has taken a city or town and NATO spokesmen have quite
publically announced their intentions to attack the Serb forces who try and retake it.
Hugh has fundamentally backed the wrong horse in this and in fact are more and more
sounding like the Workers Power group in England who I think are the only other
tendency in the world that has so loudly jumped on the KLA train.
>
> But there's hope, of course. Most people can chew gum and walk at the same
> time, even those who have unlearned it most diligently.
Chewing gum? Is nothing compared to the cheer leading now being pushed by Hugh and the
Morenoites to be the left and militant cover of NATIO policy on the Balkans.
>
> STOP THE BOMBING!
Yes!
>
> NATO OUT OF SERBIA!
NATO/United Nations out of the Balkans!
>
> NO IMPERIALIST PROTECTORATE!
Ridiculous in light events in Bosnia and Croatia.
>
> NATO OUT OF THE BALKANS!
NATO/United Nations out of the Balkans!
>
> STOP THE GENOCIDE!
Ridiculous. In fact the real genocide started with the NATO attacks!
>
> SERBIA OUT OF KOSOVA!
The Morenoite left cover for Rambouet!
>
> SELF-DETERMINATION FOR KOSOVA!
No longer on the order of the day and completely subordinate to the question of the
imperialist attack on Serbia.
>
> SUPPORT THE ARMED STRUGGLE OF THE KOSOVARS AGAINST SERBIAN OPPRESSION!
That is what NATO is doing! Along with the Morenoites!
>
> ARM THE WORKING PEOPLE OF SERBIA AND KOSOVA!
Arm the entire former Yugoslavian republic and the Balkans through workers revoltion
to defeat imperialism.
>
> FOR A FEDERATION OF FREE, SOCIALIST STATES IN THE BALKANS!
Impossible with your pro imperialist line!
>
>
> (And turn Cook, Robertson, Jamie-boy and that petrified NATO general wotsit
> into a cluster bomb and drop them on to Clinton from a great height! Blair
> and Schroeder can be tied to a cruise missile and programmed to ram home
> right up Milosevic's arse. Now that would be a *smart* bomb.)
Now this is interesting! Are you already siding with your *own* bourgeoisie against
the Americans? Nothing smart about this. But quite possible with the methodology which
is the same in the Morenoite approach to the present war and Hugh trying to joke us
with this finish.
Translated it would mean that arming Europe against America would be a step forward!
This war, the first in Europe certainly has been a watershed for the "left"! The USec
leaping into the second International. The Morenoites and Workers Power leaping into
the arms of NATO as a left wing cover.
Our "Marxist" Chris bleating for Blair and the third way of Kautskyite militarism...
At least Dave and the Lcmcri have been consistent with their anti-imperialist united
front stuff. However this too is quite bankrupt.
Quite funny in all this is that Proyect over on Asps actually almost gets it right!
That must be the biggest surprise of all when one looks at his track record on the
third world. (South Africa, Zaire, central and Latin america)
What appears to be clear as the crisis of imperialism deepens into white heat that
many leftists appear to be crossing the Rubicon ..The MWG despite its incredible
workerist opportunism say that we are in a sense heading towards a new Zimmerwald.
They may be correct!
Warm regards
Bob Malecki
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