At 21:34 05/10/99 +0200, Bob wrote:
>Ah Rob,
>
>Seems I touched a "aussie" nerve.
Bob, you think "making people uncomfortable" is a sign that you are
effective polemically. But it is obvious that Rob does not contribute to
these debates merely as a generic Autralian.
>But the point is that the East Timorese
>certainly will not get Independence which if you noticed we support now!
>Unfortunately it will take a proletarian revolution throughtout Indonesia
>led by a marxist revolutionary party in order to obtain this.
So what should be done by the East Timorese? To refuse all temporary,
conditional allies, while they wait for the truly proletarian elements
amongst them, tempered in the great steel factories, coal mines, and
shipyards of Dili, to recognise the way to find the web page of the true
centre of revolutionary Leninist leadership?
>
>As far as the Australian left is concerned there Social patriotic tailing of
>this "humanitarian"
>wrip off is their own little August 1914 of backing there own bourgeoisie in
>fact demanding that they play the role of mini cop for imperialist interests
>in the area.
Note the sarcastic "little". How "little" are the Spartacists, Bob?
This is a quite determined renunciation of dialectics. A force led by
Australian troops is every bit as bad as a force led by American troops,
and it is a sign of petty bourgeois wavering to doubt this absolute identity.
(But the fact is that even the British commander in Kosovo disobeyed an
order from the US chief of the Nato force, on the critical issue of
blocking the runway of Pristina airport against Russian planes.)
>That is the *real* sorry state of affairs down under with the
>"left"!
You are not sorry at all Bob: you are enjoying it because you believe it is
true and helps your uninspired hackneyed polemical argument.
>As far as Russia I agree. The left is terribly silent about the conflict
>going on at present.
>As far as the Australian left and yourself. Well why not be consistent in
>your opportunism and call on the UN to set in troops in this conflict? So
>even these craven opportunists are silent on this stuff.
But you merely hedge your bets Bob. Surprisingly analytical for you. Have
the Spartacists not published the exact way forward that brilliantly
exposes the craven opportunism of everyone else?
>However, this stuff is quite complicated in that we are not dealing with a
>colonial country like in Timor but left overs from a degenerated workers
>state where independence means in this case Islamic fundamentalism and the
>raw resource rich parts of the SU going their own way.
>Another example of this might be the call by the nationalists in the richer
>parts of Northern Italy for independence from the South and poor parts of
>Italy.Would we support such a call? No I don't think so.
Have you got Central Committee backing for that statement? Rather
vacillating is it not?
>Finally the only class capable of actually leading this struggle to a
>successful conclusion in Timor is the Indonesian proletariat.
I thought you were going to forget.
But since you raise the matter, How large is the Indonesian proletariat, to
the nearest 10 million? What are their main centres of concentration?
Presumably as you are in touch with the centre of world revolutionary
Leninist leadership which presumably is not as little as the leftist
organisations you mock, this centre has the resources to supply all such
basis data for a solid revolution and our edification.
> as the Austraian ICLers put it:
>
>"Just as they portray imperialism as merely a policy which can be changed
>through pressure,
Of course the policies of imperialism can be changed through pressure, but
who said imperialism was "merely" a policy?
>Trotsky
>wrote:
>
> The preparation for
>revolution demands a simultaneous break not only with the bourgeois radicals
>but, as we already know, also with the democratic reformists in the working
>class itself."
The preparation for revolution in the head of Trotsky may "demand" that
certain things happen "simultaneously".
But in real life who could ensure that things really would simultaneously,
apart from in the head of Trotskyists?
Presumably, Bob, you think the only revolutionary situation will be if
(substitute "when") socialist revolution breaks out in Indonesia and in
East Timor. Simultaneously of course, otherwise it would not really feel
orgasmically revolutionary!
Chris Burford
London
--- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---
