>>> "Charles Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 12/20/98 11:20AM >>>

I probably talked too long on this

You probably are tired of it.

Anyway, you seem to say
we are saying the same thing.

I certainly cheer your 
rigorous democracy. I just
don't want you to think
we Leninists are not
with you 100% in that,
despite Stalinism.


>>> Rob Schaap <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 12/18 11:54 PM >>>
G'day Chas,

I'm a bit snowed under just now, but I think we'd ultimately have to agree
we're not gonna agree on much of this (something Russia's socialists, for
whatever reason, were not very good at after 1917).  I do think you miss my
point in this part of the exchange, though:

>>Charles: But no bourgeois government
>>has done better than this , right ?
>Rob:  Most bourgeois governments have the TINA hegemony going for them.
>Churches, schools, workplaces, media and papers all combine beautifully to
>make profound disagreement at the social level pretty unlikely.
>Charles: The Soviet government had
>the equivalent going for it. If you are
>saying the Soviet government had
>democratic centralism then the above
>is part of democratic centralism and
>so the bourgeoisie have democratic
>centralism too. It is false that the
>Soviet system was run on force
>and not Gramscian hegemony as
>Rob:  Bourgeois
>governments do VERY well as a consequence.
>Charles: Some have, some haven't. They
>have a long history. They have carried out
>the biggest wars in the history of humanity.
>That is the complete opposite of democracy
>and is total centralism. In other words,
>they send millions of their own people
>off to be massacred for profits mainly.
>That ain't democracy.
>Rob:  They function daily against the
>better interests of those who put 'em there and we respond by ever keeping
>'em there.
>Charles: This is not democracy. It is
>a profound trickster masquerading
>as democracy.

As I see it, I made the point that it's not easy distinguishing between DC
as it was practiced from what bourgeois parties generally do.  You then
argued that this is demonstrably not democracy at all.

Which is what I thought I was saying.


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