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Far better than Clinton’s ‘no-fly zones’ in Syria. I’d rather have Trump talking to Putin than HRC provoking him. http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/12/19/the-bad-losers-and-what-they-fear-losing/ <http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/12/19/the-bad-losers-and-what-they-fear-losing/> > On Dec 19, 2016, at 3:30 PM, John Reimann <1999wild...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Well and good. But how about Russian troops (and airplanes)? Let's not forget > that now Trump is moving into close alliance with Putin as far as Syria is > concerned. > > John > > On Mon, Dec 19, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Carl G. Estabrook <galli...@illinois.edu > <mailto:galli...@illinois.edu>> wrote: > The demand should be the removal of all US troops (and bases, weapons, > financial support) from MENA. > > Given the extent of US responsibility for the general situation, we should > pay for steps taken by the UNSC to pacify the region. > > —CGE > > > On Dec 19, 2016, at 1:29 PM, John Reimann via Marxism > > <marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu <mailto:marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu>> wrote: > > > > Trump, Assad and the US Left > > <https://oaklandsocialist.com/2016/12/19/trump-assad-and-the-us-left/ > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__oaklandsocialist.com_2016_12_19_trump-2Dassad-2Dand-2Dthe-2Dus-2Dleft_&d=DQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=F9NEV0VDiFoCI3pYE-qr4EKdZs0MRBMnFdqhZqXrteg&s=VIvmXS5RuXVRNJJpLVhaY2bSOcxU2vqJUBPHc4bRKjY&e=>> > > Posted on December 19, 2016 > > <https://oaklandsocialist.com/2016/12/19/trump-assad-and-the-us-left/ > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__oaklandsocialist.com_2016_12_19_trump-2Dassad-2Dand-2Dthe-2Dus-2Dleft_&d=DQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=F9NEV0VDiFoCI3pYE-qr4EKdZs0MRBMnFdqhZqXrteg&s=VIvmXS5RuXVRNJJpLVhaY2bSOcxU2vqJUBPHc4bRKjY&e=>> > > by > > oaklandsocialist <https://oaklandsocialist.com/author/oaklandsocialist/ > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__oaklandsocialist.com_author_oaklandsocialist_&d=DQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=F9NEV0VDiFoCI3pYE-qr4EKdZs0MRBMnFdqhZqXrteg&s=4TP4MF4uBHJ2aNDLYyUzzO21a22IEwUnUCuyC-8THbw&e=>> > > > > Much of the left in the US is basically taking the same position that > > Donald Trump is taking regarding Syria. As the New York Times reports > > <http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/12/world/middleeast/donald-trump-syria.html?_r=0 > > > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nytimes.com_2016_11_12_world_middleeast_donald-2Dtrump-2Dsyria.html-3F-5Fr-3D0&d=DQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=F9NEV0VDiFoCI3pYE-qr4EKdZs0MRBMnFdqhZqXrteg&s=3MhdQ28e14A2AZYdHo3cewvdLludgvRt5-ry9aSm4tk&e=>>: > > Trump’s position is “that the United States should focus on defeating the > > Islamic State, and find common ground with the Syrians and their Russian > > backers.” “My attitude was you’re fighting Syria, Syria is fighting ISIS, > > and you have to get rid of ISIS,” Trump has said > > <http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/17/world/middleeast/assad-donald-trump-syria-natural-ally.html > > > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.nytimes.com_2016_11_17_world_middleeast_assad-2Ddonald-2Dtrump-2Dsyria-2Dnatural-2Dally.html&d=DQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=F9NEV0VDiFoCI3pYE-qr4EKdZs0MRBMnFdqhZqXrteg&s=cT2puERJHmJMLUI14bVr-Zmvrm6CN2DNeRjPi8jFFtI&e=>> > > . > > > > Is this so very different from those on the left who see the Islamic State > > and al Qaeda (in the form of Nusra) as the only opponents of Assad? Is it > > so different from those who justify any crime against humanity in the name > > of combating the Islamic State fascists? What will they say if a Trump > > presidency actually does join forces with Putin & Co. in Syria? Will they > > support that? > > > > Basically, these lefts have abandoned any class position. They see one, and > > only one enemy: US imperialism. The Russian capitalist state cannot be > > imperialist, according to them. That includes when it imposes itself on the > > people of Chechnya, using the same military tactics that the racist State > > of Israel used against the people of Gaza. > > > > > > *Same as the Stalinists of Old*These lefts are taking a position similar to > > that taken by the Stalinists and their liberal supporters back in the 1930s > > and ’40s. In the first place, any reports of the crimes of Stalin & Co. are > > purely capitalist propaganda. Second, that those who traveled to the Soviet > > Union as guests of the terrorist regime of Stalin and came back with > > glowing reports were “independent” reporters – as if the people of the > > Soviet Union then or Syria today would speak openly to these “reporters” > > for their torturer! But, most important, back in the era of Stalin his > > supporters argued, in effect, that the world working class must sacrifice > > its interests for the interests of the “socialist homeland”, which in > > reality meant the Stalinist bureaucracy. > > > > > > *“US Imperialism the One and Only Enemy”*Today, the defenders of > > Putin/Assad (and Rouhani and Hezbollah) make a similar argument: That the > > one and only battle that matters today is that against US imperialism (and > > its allies, including Israel). Therefore, anything is justified in opposing > > US imperialism, which is the only imperialist force in the world. They > > forget that every capitalist state is imperialist, or would be if it could. > > What is the Guatemalan state when it casts covetous eyes on Belize, with > > the desire to invade that country? What are both the Indian and Pakistani > > states with regard to Kashmir? How about the Brazilian state when it sent > > troops into Haiti to murder Haitian workers protesting in the streets? How > > about the Chinese state, when it expands into Pakistan, Africa and South > > America? > > > > https://oaklandsocialist.com/2016/12/19/trump-assad-and-the-us-left/ > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__oaklandsocialist.com_2016_12_19_trump-2Dassad-2Dand-2Dthe-2Dus-2Dleft_&d=DQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=F9NEV0VDiFoCI3pYE-qr4EKdZs0MRBMnFdqhZqXrteg&s=VIvmXS5RuXVRNJJpLVhaY2bSOcxU2vqJUBPHc4bRKjY&e=> > > > > -- > > "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them." > > Asata Shakur > > Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__oaklandsocialist.com&d=DQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=F9NEV0VDiFoCI3pYE-qr4EKdZs0MRBMnFdqhZqXrteg&s=vXiP9CP2fyMlmMgUZSRmKds4GDKdEUNSgJN7uwlHMWc&e=> > > and // > > www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.facebook.com_WorkersIntlNetwork-3Fref-3Dstream&d=DQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=F9NEV0VDiFoCI3pYE-qr4EKdZs0MRBMnFdqhZqXrteg&s=MBVWQ9ftbY9gvUIlNr5f9139BWgZOGYWo-QcuuARqXs&e=> > > _________________________________________________________ > > Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.marxmail.org_sub.htm&d=DQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=F9NEV0VDiFoCI3pYE-qr4EKdZs0MRBMnFdqhZqXrteg&s=j_4gBhWviZoMIpm_bb1592IBopKYThqdV3SV4xG7xDU&e=> > > Set your options at: > > http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/galliher%40illinois.edu > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.csbs.utah.edu_options_marxism_galliher-2540illinois.edu&d=DQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=F9NEV0VDiFoCI3pYE-qr4EKdZs0MRBMnFdqhZqXrteg&s=gnJZhMnZs4FL2xanHpLrRFQhgKuhR_FrClJJNLT9lZI&e=> > > > > > -- > "No one is going to give you the education you need to overthrow them." Asata > Shakur > Check out:https:http://oaklandsocialist.com > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__oaklandsocialist.com&d=DQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=F9NEV0VDiFoCI3pYE-qr4EKdZs0MRBMnFdqhZqXrteg&s=vXiP9CP2fyMlmMgUZSRmKds4GDKdEUNSgJN7uwlHMWc&e=> > and //www.facebook.com/WorkersIntlNetwork?ref=stream > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.facebook.com_WorkersIntlNetwork-3Fref-3Dstream&d=DQMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=tfHzwZBcTLEveiewRiq0OdhFmfRmlvZjpIBS0AUJ2v0&m=F9NEV0VDiFoCI3pYE-qr4EKdZs0MRBMnFdqhZqXrteg&s=MBVWQ9ftbY9gvUIlNr5f9139BWgZOGYWo-QcuuARqXs&e=> _________________________________________________________ Full posting guidelines at: http://www.marxmail.org/sub.htm Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
