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Many thanks for this. I've only read published selections of Engels' late letters, and am interested in any others anyone knows as well as those I mention which have more to say on economic determinism and over-reductive approaches to the base-superstructure model? On that subject, when I compare the following passages: In the case of the arts, it is well known that certain periods of their flowering are out of all proportion to the general development of society, hence also to the material foundation, the skeletal structure as it were, of its organization. For example, the Greeks compared to the moderns or also Shakespeare. It is even recognized that certain forms of art, e.g. the epic, can no longer be produced in their world epoch-making, classical stature as soon as the production of art, as such, begins; that is, that certain significant forms within the realm of the arts are possible only at an undeveloped stage of artistic development. If this is the case with the relation between different kinds of art within the realm of the arts, it is already less puzzling that it is the case in the relation of the entire realm to the general development of society. The difficulty consists only in the general formulation of these contradictions. As soon as they have been specified, they are already clarified. [.] Why should not the historic childhood of humanity, its most beautiful unfolding, as a stage never to return, exercise an eternal charm? There are unruly children and precocious children. Many of the old peoples belong in this category. The Greeks were normal children. The charm of their art for us is not in contradiction to the undeveloped stage of society on which it grew. [It] is its result, rather, and is inextricably bound up, rather, with the fact that the unripe social conditions under which it arose, and could alone arise, can never return. [Bei der Kunst bekannt, daß bestimmte Blütezeiten derselben keineswegs im Verhältnis zur allgemeinen Entwicklung der Gesellschaft, also auch der materiellen Grundlage, gleichsam des Knochenbaus ihrer Organisation, stehn. Z.B. die Griechen verglichen mit den modernen oder auch Shakespeare. Von gewissen Formen der Kunst, z.B. dem Epos, sogar anerkannt, daß sie, in ihrer Weltepoche machenden, klassischen Gestalt nie produziert werden können, sobald die Kunstproduktion als solche eintritt; also daß innerhalb des Berings der Kunst selbst gewisse bedeutende Gestaltungen derselben nur auf einer unentwickelten Stufe der Kunstentwicklung möglich sind. Wenn dies im Verhältnis der verschiednen Kunstarten innerhalb des Bereichs der Kunst selbst der Fall ist, ist es schon weniger auffallend, daß es im Verhältnis des ganzen Bereichs der Kunst zur allgemeinen Entwicklung der Gesellschaft der Fall ist. Die Schwierigkeit besteht nur in der allgemeinen Fassung dieser Widersprüche. Sobald sie spezifiziert werden, sind sie schon erklärt. [...] Warum sollte die geschichtliche Kindheit der Menschheit, wo sie am schönsten entfaltet, als eine nie wiederkehrende Stufe nicht ewigen Reiz ausüben? Es gibt ungezogene Kinder und altkluge Kinder. Viele der alten Völker gehören in diese Kategorie. Normale Kinder waren die Griechen. Der Reiz ihrer Kunst für uns steht nicht im Widerspruch zu der unentwickelten Gesellschaftsstufe, worauf sie wuchs. Ist vielmehr ihr Resultat und hängt vielmehr unzertrennlich damit zusammen, daß die unreifen gesellschaftlichen Bedingungen, unter denen sie entstand und allein entstehn konnte, nie wiederkehren können.] (from the 1857 introduction to the Gründrisse) And: In the social production of their existence, men inevitably enter into definite relations, which are independent of their will, namely relations of production appropriate to a given stage in the development of their material forces of production. The totality of these relations of production constitutes the economic structure of society, the real foundation, on which arises a legal and political superstructure and to which correspond definite forms of social consciousness. The mode of production of material life conditions the general process of social, political and intellectual life. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness. At a certain stage of development, the material productive forces of society come into conflict with the existing relations of production or - this merely expresses the same thing in legal terms - with the property relations within the framework of which they have operated hitherto. From forms of development of the productive forces these relations turn into their fetters. Then begins an era of social revolution. The changes in the economic foundation lead sooner or later to the transformation of the whole immense superstructure. [In der gesellschaftlichen Produktion ihres Lebens gehen die Menschen bestimmte, notwendige, von ihrem Willen unabhängige Verhältnisse ein, Produktionsverhältnisse, die einer bestimmten Entwicklungsstufe ihrer materiellen Produktivkräfte entsprechen. Die Gesamtheit dieser Produktionsverhältnisse bildet die ökonomische Struktur der Gesellschaft, die reale Basis, worauf sich ein juristischer und politischer Überbau erhebt und welcher bestimmte gesellschaftliche Bewußtseinsformen entsprechen. Die Produktionsweise des materiellen Lebens bedingt den sozialen, politischen und geistigen Lebensprozeß überhaupt. Es ist nicht das Bewußtsein der Menschen, das ihr Sein, sondern umgekehrt ihr gesellschaftliches Sein, das ihr Bewußtsein bestimmt. Auf einer gewissen Stufe ihrer Entwicklung geraten die materiellen Produktivkräfte der Gesellschaft in Widerspruch mit den vorhandenen Produktionsverhältnissen oder, was nur ein juristischer Ausdruck dafür ist, mit den Eigentumsverhältnissen, innerhalb deren sie sich bisher bewegt hatten. Aus Entwicklungsformen der Produktivkräfte schlagen diese Verhältnisse in Fesseln derselben um. Es tritt dann eine Epoche sozialer Revolution ein. Mit der Veränderung der ökonomischen Grundlage wälzt sich der ganze ungeheure Überbau langsamer oder rascher um.] (from the 1859 Preface to A Contribution to the Critique of Political Economy) then I think the two taken together can be read as implying that superstructural changes are an inevitable consequence of modifications in the base, but that the process entails certain delays. This seems to be the interpretation of Hans G Helms, about whose thoughts on the economic conditions of music making I'm currently finishing a paper. But I'm interested in others' thoughts on this. The never-ending war between all-purpose economic determinists and not-even-particularly-relative-autonomists-who-nonetheless-claim-Marxist-roots-for-their-interpretations (such as those who try to make Adorno simply into a latter-day Hegelian idealist), in terms of investigations of culture, seems rather fruitless in the end. Solidarity, Ian -------------------------------------------------- From: "Lüko Willms" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 7:56 PM To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Marxism] Engels 1890s letters in German online? > ====================================================================== > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > ====================================================================== > > > Ian Pace ([email protected]) wrote on 2010-06-30 at 19:10:24 in about > [Marxism] Engels 1890s letters in German online?: >> >> s there anywhere where Engels' late letters can be viewed in German > online? In particular the letter to Joseph Bloch of September 21, 1890, > and > that to Walter Borgius on January 25, 1894? >> > > I'll make them available on <www.mlwerke.de>. Just need to scan them in, > work them up for HTML and let you know. I just see that the letter to > Bloch > contains some greek words in greek letters ... uh, that may mean more > work. > I have no greek keyboard, but maybe Windows' character map can help. > > > Thanks for asking, BTW. These are letters which I wanted to make > available online for a long time. I just need a little push from time to > time. > > Engel's explanations are very pertinent to debates raging on this forum, > and I wanted make use of their content in a contribution I planned to > make. > > If there is anything else you want to see on the Website, let me know. > > > Comradely yours, > Lüko Willms > Frankfurt, Germany > -------------------------------- > visit http://www.mlwerke.de Marx, Engels, Luxemburg, Lenin, Trotzki in > German > > ________________________________________________ > Send list submissions to: [email protected] > Set your options at: > http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/ian%40ianpace.com > ________________________________________________ Send list submissions to: [email protected] Set your options at: http://lists.econ.utah.edu/mailman/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
