Marvin, the numbers have been well-established for some time now. Around 1140 killed, which included over 300 military, police or security. About 780-800 civilians killed (this is form memory but pretty accurate), of which around 700 were Israeli citizens, and the other 80 or so were Thai and other exploited foreign workers. Of the 700 Israeli civilians, about 30 were '48 Palestinians, and about 38 were children. The overwhelming majority were killed by Palestinian fighters. Chris Slee's claim that "most" were killed by Israel using the 'Hannibal doctrine' is, unfortunately, a feel-good way for many to avoid the stark reality of the day - Israeli forces DID kill Israeli hostages, but there is only one confirmed case in a house in Beeri, where some 15 or so were killed, and it is also confirmed that about 30 hostages were killed in cars bombed by the IDF before they could reach Gaza. There may be more, but it is unlikely the number exceeds around 100 of the 800.
This is neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the context points many have raised above, much of which I agree with on both sides of the argument, just I think we need to base our assessments on the actual facts. In short: It is absolutely clear that Hamas did not plan a civilian massacre, and I can elaborate on that. The fact that there was a gigantic massacre, carried out both by Palestinians in Hamas or other uniforms, or civilians in no uniforms, was in complete violation of orders. However, order, and instructions in general, were only given out to the core group about an hour before the attack. Lots of others (both fighters and civilians) crossed afterwards without instructions. Hamas completely lost control. I think it is correct therefore to analyse this as a gigantic anti-colonial prison-break, with all the irrational horror that usually accompanies this, like in all the examples given (Nat Turner, Mau Mau, Algeria, Black Jacobins etc). Obviously that doesn't "justify" mass murder. But that is different to condemning the armed operation itself. Nevertheless, the fact that Hamas lost control so rapidly and that it devolved into what it did was a disaster. It has been called "being more victorious than planned" or some such thing. It is nothing of the sort. The loss of control was the beginning of the defeat. The result has been unmitigated catastrophe, the worst defeat of Palestine since 1948. Those trying to make out that "the Palestinians are winning" are simply trying to avoid the reality of the disaster that October 7 turned into in order to not "blame". But being the victims of a holocaust is not a "victory", no matter how many peope are marchuing the in the West. The question of "blame" then becomes complex, because Palestinians have a right to armed resistance (and have indeed tried everything else), and if it is true that they did not plan massacre, then it is hard to blame them for that, and yet it is the massacre that has politically facilitated one whole year of unimpeded genocide, total western support for it, the atmosphere of Mccarthyism in the West, and complete unity of the Israeli settler population, like never before. If it had only been an operation against the Israeli military, as planned, obviously Israel would still have attacked savagely, but it would not have had the political staying power of what actually happened. So I can't "condemn" a military operation by the oppressed, I can "condemn" murder but it has little point, since I think this was a case of Hamas losing control and the brutalised turning into the brutalisers for a day, which whe you think of it is simply Social Science 101, except most liberals forget that for Palestine. Yet at the same time,m it happened, and so Hamas does hold overall political responsibility for the disaster that has befallen Palestine. Sometimes, the reality does not fall into our neat categories. Support for Hamas, and even more, for teh October 7, has crashed in Gaza, even if it is still high in the West Bank and in the refugee diaspora, who are not the ones felling teh holocaust. Of course, in '48 Palestine, support for Hamas and October 7 among Palestinians is next to nothing. On Wed, Oct 23, 2024 at 10:26 AM Marv Gandall via groups.io <marvgand2= gmail....@groups.io> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 22, 2024 at 04:01 PM, Glenn Kissack wrote: > > I don’t think that slaughtering some 600 civilians — that’s Juan Cole’s > number — is the way to achieve that. > > Has Juan Cole's estimate been challenged within the pro-Palestine > movement? I hadn't realized the number was that high, but it's an > uncomfortable subject that's generally avoided within the movement. > _ > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. View/Reply Online (#33111): https://groups.io/g/marxmail/message/33111 Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/109157646/21656 -=-=- POSTING RULES & NOTES #1 YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. #2 This mail-list, like most, is publicly & permanently archived. #3 Subscribe and post under an alias if #2 is a concern. #4 Do not exceed five posts a day. -=-=- Group Owner: marxmail+ow...@groups.io Unsubscribe: https://groups.io/g/marxmail/leave/13617172/21656/1316126222/xyzzy [arch...@mail-archive.com] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
