On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 18:40:49 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Dec 1999 09:38:25 -0800 (PST), Neil wrote:
>
> >I always thought cable and satellite TV companies would prosecute you
for
> >copyright theft, or perhaps just simply theft or fraud for this, both
over
> >there across the pond, and here in England.
>
> Nope, not here. It's legal to copy shows on your VCR or other
> recording device hear. It's not legal to unscramble the shows.
> Federal Copyright law, case law, time shifting. Sounds silly I know.
Sorry, I should have been more clear, here, what I was still discussing was
the obtaining / viewing of encrypted subscription or pay events, not general
copying of publicly viewable, broadcast material.
> >I don't think it's likely they would get prosecuted, either. But I would
> >still contend it's technically illegal, which I think is the point in
> >debate.
>
> It's legal to copy someone else's CD for noncommercial use here.
> AHRA. Federal Constitutional law.
I've read this, as no doubt you have - but it doesn't state explicitly what
you state.
Yours is simply an interpretation.
If what you say is true, when would somebody ever need buy an original CD?
So long as somebody always had an original copy, and no money changed hands,
given your perspective nobody would ever need buy a copy.
Don't music and video libraries do a bomb in your neck of the woods? ;-)
> >But does it say you are allowed to breach copyright, and not actually
have a
> >copy yourself? In that it's OK simply to pirate somebody else's copy?
When
> >does the commercial aspect kick in? Surely you would have been a
commercial
> >customer if you'd actually had to buy the CD?
>
> All of your barbed language aside, it's legal to copy a friend's CD to
> MD in the U.S. If you interpreted the term commercial in the AHRA the
> way you want, the term non-commercial would have no meaning,
*No* it would not.
If I have a copy of the original CD, and copy this to MD in order to listen
to it, perhaps on the move, or for whatever personal reason, then this is
almost certainly a non-commercial activity - as I'm extremely unlikely to
purchase another original copy on the MD format. So long as you don't
subscribe to the belief that it would be valid for the copyright owner to
impose the format or the platform with which I could use the copyright
material.
This is, I believe, the type of thing the AHRA appears to address, IMO, and
give the vagueness of the language used, I believe this opinion to be as
tenable as any other.
However if I don't own a copy of the original, copyright CD, I'd have no
option than a commercial one with which to use the material.
> It's legal to record someone else's CD for noncommercial use in the
> U.S. AHRA. Federal Constitutional law.
What is non-commercial use?
Surely if I didn't own a copy I'd have no option than a commercial one with
which to use the material.
Given this dubious argument, where do you draw the line?
> Not in the U.S. it doesn't. Federal Constitutional law.
You seem to be equating the aspect of the constitution that advocates the
free passage of ideas and knowledge, to the free-for-all ignorance of
copyright for intellectual property such as music.
Quite simply you are arguing a specific from a generality, here, and there
doesn't seem to be any firm details to support this supposition.
> >> Don't you think
> >> that's getting a little dangerous? Don't you think your liberty is
at
> >> stake a little bit here?
> >
> >This is a little of a strawman really.
>
> No, it's the heart of the matter.
Hardly - I simply don't define liberty and the freedom of exchange in ideas,
to be the same as being free to pirate the intellectual copyright property
of those that worked to produce it.
What's the tangible difference between this and copying say copyright
computer games software? Why won't you answer this type of question?
> >> Anytime copyright law is mitigated in the U.S., it is mitigated due
to
> >> a competing Constitutional value. It has to be, because copyright
> >> itself derives from the Constitution.
> >
> >I would imagine that in reality, copyright is derived from peoples'
> >intellectual property, and the rights *they* have to protect this.
>
> No, it derives from the Constitution.
Why does the constitution define copyright?
What about trademarks, patents, with your argument how can you ever class an
idea or information, or material as ever being copyright restricted, if you
can simply copy it in your own home even when not owning a legitimate copy.
> Your restrictions so to speak are a matter of contract law, and may or
> may not be legally binding. Copyright law is Federal Constitutional
> law and has nothing to do with your restrictions. Whether certain
> contract terms are binding is a matter of state law and varies greatly
> from state to state. Fairness can be a major consideration.
> Unreasonable terms in little print drafted by the person bringing the
> lawsuit are often rendered null by a state court.
I'm sorry, but it's hardly unreasonable to include copyright restrictions on
prerecorded music media, in much the same way as for prerecorded video
media, computer software - whether games or otherwise.
The same for encrypted or pay events supplied by cable or satelite vendors.
> >I think what is being discussed is the questionable legality of pirating
> >copyright material owned by a third party.
>
> It's legal to copy someone else's CD in the U.S. for noncommercial
> use. See the AHRA. Federal Constitutional law.
Then why would it possibly be illegal to pirate computer games software for
home - *non-commercial* use, or other computer software, video media, or
encrypted or pay cable / satelite events?
Why won't you answer this question?
You just keep reciting the interpretation that the AHRA makes it legal to
pirate music copyright material that you don't actually have a legal copy
of.
> I'm winging this folks, if I make a mistake please forgive me.
Just answer the related questions, Steve, it's all you have to do.
If your legal experience is what you claim, it should be child's play.
Neil
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