"...because you aren't working with functional levels of sanity, right?..." - CB
I'm guessing that your definition here of sanity is being able to function in whatever given society the person currently resides. Correct? “Personally I think therapy can only go so far to help people... Maybe I think you can't fix some people...yet:)…” – CB I agree. Most of it is based upon superstition and ignorance. Of course, the question arises again, exactly what does ‘help people’ and more specifically ‘fix…people’ mean in this context? And, as interesting as the notion of human engineering is and even though it is already in process, like GM foods, the true function and results are not known. A side comment: for those of us who were alive during WWII, the notion of such experimentation and ‘engineering’ was found to be anathema mostly based upon the hedonistic and self directed experimentation by a few Nazis. On Dec 27, 8:49 am, CrossBow <[email protected]> wrote: > So, if you are a determinist, could you say that a particular person under > certain conditions would suicide? It could be some psyches will never hold > up to much strife. Chemical/Genetic madness throws it all in the > ditch...because you aren't working with functional levels of sanity, right? > How are we to know if that person will be that way? WE CAN'T. "Murderers" > with negative intent can manipulate toward that result, but they can't Know > for sure. > > Personally I think therapy can only go so far to help people...does that > make me a bad, cynical person? Maybe I think you can't fix some > people...yet:) Someday could we engineer for a genetic template that weeds > out the worst of the known chemical/structural defects? We can look > for Down's Syndrome, why not the rest? oooooo does that sound like big > brother? eugenics? too homegenized? > > > > On Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Clogtowner <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi y'all - I agree with the first part of your post - Zimbabwe is > > next. > > > As for the second - I disagree. "In every instance where the details > > of a suicide are carefully and > > meticulously examined it is directly caused by the wrong doing of > > another or others. There are no suicides" > > > Not so. I have the right to die when I choose. I am not required to > > divulge reasons. There maybe none. I may just have had enough and I'm > > tired. It will be my decision. > > In the Madoff case - he bears some guilt for the suicide of others. > > > On Dec 26, 3:51 pm, Morpheal <[email protected]> wrote: > > > GUINEA'S JUNTA AS AN EXAMPLE OF CIVILIZATION'S FAILINGS: > > > > There has been some debate as to whether the world community should > > > "talk" to Guinea's junta, after its successful coup, taking over the > > > government of that nation. It is a strange debate. > > > > We must keep in mind that what makes it a strange debate is that there > > > is no proper and legal mechanism to overcome and bring down from power > > > a truly corrupt and oppressive government. > > > We do not live in a world where civilization has advanced to the > > > extent that a people can prepare a case against a government, take it > > > to a world court, and have the leader or government, removed by the > > > world community, using legal means. That step in the advance of > > > civilization might chance to come, someday, but likely not very soon. > > > There are too many bad leaders and bad governments, which fear that > > > they too would be removed from power for their actions in regard to > > > violating their own people's rights and the rights of other nations. > > > > Yes, of course, other nations could ask for a removal from power, if a > > > leader in the community of nations, was overstepping peaceful bounds, > > > and violating their fundamental rights. An alternative to war. > > > Alternatives to war, such as the advent of peace keeping are very slow > > > to come into effect. Millennia of acceptance of a constant condition > > > of incessant conflict stood firmly in the way of establishing peace > > > keeping efforts. The next step becomes peace enforcement. The > > > effective policing of the world community to force peaceful > > > resolution, by legal means, of sources of conflict. The global village > > > needs the international policeman, the United Nations soldier, as much > > > as any village needs its own local police. The alternative is the > > > potential for violent chaos where those who are simply attempting to > > > continue their day to day lives, including non combatants, women, > > > children, and their livelihoods, are all made victims of violence. > > > That lesson has been learned relatively late in the history of the > > > human species. That in itself is a warning as to how the species has > > > learned to so unquestioningly behave. The foundations upon which human > > > civilization is built are somewhat shoddy, crumbling, and uncertain. > > > If civilization is to remain standing, the edifice needs a lot of > > > restorative work, with major changes to the foundation of ideas it is > > > constructed upon. > > > > Once we have peace enforcement in place, and nations have to make > > > their cases against one another by legal means, seeking legal > > > resolution of their grievances against each other, we begin to build > > > civilization upon a more solid foundation. Most of the atrocities, the > > > mass destruction, the violent confrontations, that have filled the > > > history books, could be averted by legal resolution of differences, > > > according to universalizable principles that can be shown to be valid > > > for all. > > > > As to Guinea, we must remember that only a military coup or a > > > successful civil uprising can do remove what is considered to be a bad > > > government or leadership from power. Civil uprisings tend to spill a > > > lot of blood. Military coups are usually less bloody, and sometimes > > > they are bloodless. > > > > Until the world empowers a legal mechanism for removing a leader or > > > government that is acting wrongfully we must accept the legitimacy of > > > coups and revolutions, judging them only by their subsequent actions. > > > We must keep in mind that bad, usually corrupt, leadership or > > > governments, can hold power while claiming democracy is in force, > > > without any chance of being voted out by a popular vote. There are too > > > many mechanisms available to assure continuance in power, by means of > > > terror, and other corrupt practices, for the mere label of democracy > > > to be an effective antidote for the poison of corruption. > > > > THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SUICIDE: > > > > There is in fact no such thing as "suicide". That cause of death does > > > not really exist. As difficult as it might be to comprehend people > > > never actually simply choose to kill themselves. The label "suicide" > > > really means only the fact that the murderer or murderers were not > > > identified and perhaps were unidentifiable. The fact that the > > > assailants left no actual physical mark upon the corpse does not > > > lessen their guilt as to the act of murder. The lack of a wound, or > > > physical evidence of an act of murder, does not repudiate the cause. > > > In fact psychological and social violence, by others, is often the > > > direct cause of death. The murderers sometimes take the sadistic > > > stance of their actions being no more than a big joke, but that > > > reveals a darker side to the function of humor in society. Humor too > > > can be used to kill. Unfortunately few really understand the social > > > and psychological mechanisms involved other than those who have > > > survived an attempted murder. Most of those are not experts in the > > > relevant fields of study. Most of their testimony on the subject would > > > tend to be disregarded. The only difference ascribed to them, compared > > > to the dead victims, is that they were considered to have been "tough > > > enough" to withstand their assailants. Well, toughening up society to > > > withstand murderous assailants that it refuses to recognize as such is > > > not a very good answer to the problem. It certainly does not make for > > > a better society. It does make it far more likely that more of the > > > toughened up will become assailants themselves, and the causes of > > > further deaths. > > > > I recall the case of a young married woman, living in Canada and a > > > recent European immigrant, married to another immigrant of the same > > > origins. When he decided he no longer wanted to be in the > > > relationship, and wanted to pursue other personal social interests, he > > > chose to use his social status in the ethnic group and the local > > > community where they lived to cut her out socially, and to isolate her > > > from those who were her friends. She was a kind, empathic, gentle, > > > woman, devoted and loyal to her marriage. Finding herself thus > > > socially rejected, essentially isolated, and with the additional > > > difficulty of some language challenges creating even more of a sense > > > of isolation, she killed herself. A typical case of murder. The ex > > > husband who cut her so thoroughly out of all of her social > > > connections, and completely out of both communities (ethnic and > > > cultural) where she had any connections with other people and any > > > chance of any support structures, was never charged with that murder, > > > and never would be. He was permitted to date and marry another woman, > > > whom he preferred, and to pursue his own bad habits to excess, without > > > consequence. Society approved of his continued enjoyments of life, his > > > continued membership in the social groups he maintained his social > > > status within, and never chastised him for his wrongs and excesses. To > > > this day he shows no remorse or recognition of his wrong doing. If > > > anything the murderer has risen in status in the society in which he > > > functions. This type of situation is not unusual. > > > > In another case one person actually was known to have assisted another > > > to suicide in the hopes of gaining some money and possessions from > > > that the deceased would leave behind. It was found that despite the > > > physical illness of the victim being a factor, the method of the > > > murderer was a consistent and well thought out plan how to lead the > > > victim to death, and how to attempt profit from that eventuality. > > > Nevertheless it was done in a manner that there was no physical > > > evidence such that the murderer could be charged with murder. After > > > all, psychological manipulation, and intention, as such, are > > > insufficient to pin the murder rap on the murderer no matter how > > > leading the actions of the murderer in fact were. The murderer was > > > clearly somewhat psychopathic and ritualized the guilt into a peculiar > > > commemorative ritual of the anniversary of the event of death > > > deliberately taking on and expressing some of the > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
