I'd love to hear whether you support, or disagree with, a change of the 
definition of 'not free'.

ookami schrieb am Dienstag, 21. September 2021 um 11:16:50 UTC+2:

> The past few days I built up bootstrapping theorems around an alternative 
> definition of 'not free' based on nf2.  They show, that in the presence of 
> ax-10 and ax-12, the current and the new nf2 based definition are 
> equivalent, so nothing really changes in higher levels of mathematics.  In 
> the earlier parts of predicate logic both definitions can differ, though.
>
> The current definition unfolds its power only after the introduction of 
> ax-10.  Before it is of limited use.  Technically speaking, this is due to 
> the nested usage of the for-all operator, and its mixed usage of qualified 
> and unqualified wff-variables.  The nf2 based definition is simpler 
> constructed, and so a couple of properties (e.g. validity across 
> propositional connectives) can be moved closer to the definition.  This 
> leads to an overall reduction in axiom usage.
>
> Besides the axiom usage balance, why should it matter else?  Let me draw 
> your attention to the nature of ax-10 to ax-13.  They are described as 
> metalogical, i. e. each instance is provable from prior axioms.  This 
> heavily relies on an operation that Norm calls 'implicit substitution'.  It 
> is described by the term ' ( x = u -> ph <-> ps ) '.  In essence, for a 
> given ph not containing u, you must be able to find a corresponding ps, 
> that does not contain x, and is equivalent to ph under the assumption x = 
> u.  The search is a no-brainer: You pick a set variable u not appearing in 
> ph, and then do a textual replacement of x with u.  The resulting ps is a 
> wff with the desired property, at least as long as your wffs are built out 
> of primitives around = and ∈.  Unfortunately, this simple textual process 
> cannot be described within our current means of logic.  The closest we can 
> come is ps <-> [ u / x ] ph.  This immediately rises the question whether 
> the disjoint condition of x and ps is not an overkill.  Is there in the end 
> more demanded than actually needed?  Such a question leads you naturally to 
> the replacement of the disjoint condition by Ⅎ x ps.  You can imagine how 
> disappointed I was to learn there is nearly no support of 'not free' at 
> this stage.
>
> Wolf
>
> Benoit schrieb am Montag, 13. September 2021 um 01:43:41 UTC+2:
>
>> To put things in context, there has been a discussion on this topic here 
>> two years ago: 
>> https://groups.google.com/g/metamath/c/Ovxv2aXJOIM/m/9WRk8TgHBwAJ and at 
>> that time I added a few staple theorems regarding this new definition (
>> http://us2.metamath.org/mpeuni/df-bj-nf.html and following ones; see the 
>> comment of ~df-bj-nf).  It came from that discussion that indeed ~nf2 would 
>> be a better definition and would globally reduce axiom usage (though of 
>> course, in some cases, axiom usage would increase). The main reason is that 
>> ~nf2 does not involve nested quantifiers, so usage of ~ax-10 is reduced.  
>> Unfortunately, I kept postponing the plan to change the definition to ~nf2, 
>> but I'm happy if you can do it.
>>
>> Benoît
>>
>

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