Hi Mendy,
I concur, change is not needed. I don't believe not finding a witnessed
event constitutes a change. And, with the addition of many many all sky
cams, sonics and radar, falls are going to be the norm in the future.
While sonics could be in question, to answer a 'funny'.....if a meteor
falls in the woods and no one is around to witness it, does it make a
sound?.... Yes if a sonic station hears it! ;)
Besides the fact the definitions have been working a very very long
time, another really obvious reason why change is not needed is many
people who should get their terminology right...don't! And we see it all
the time!
There really should be no time constraint on a fall.
There is no way I would consider Indian Butte, based on evidence
presented, a find. Who has that screw loose? I do like the original
name better though....made more sense to me and fit the addresses (with
zip codes) less than a mile away! And the fact there is an Indian
Butte, AZ not even close to the fall makes it kind of strange.
Jim
On 5/7/2014 3:07 PM, Mendy Ouzillou via Meteorite-list wrote:
So far the response has been basically, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."
However, doing so ignores changes in technology that enables us to identify
meteors at specific locations in space and time and possible fall locations.
Take Indian Butte for example. The MetBull identifies this meteorite as a Fall
(witnessed) from 1998. However, the first specimen was not found until 2013. According to
the feedback so far, this meteorite should then have been classified as a find. Indian
Butte is only one example of the situation actually being broke - so in my mind, new
information and new situations deserve a fresh perspective. By the way, I agree with the
classification of it as a fall. Given only two present choices - "fall" is the
most appropriate.
I am in no way suggesting adding the many types of descriptors as proposed by Jeff, but I
am proposing adding one more called the "correlated fall". As technology
improves, I believe we will be seeing more situations like Indian Butte where an event is
captured, but material is not found for years after the event.
Change is not always bad. :-)
Mendy
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Mulgrew [mailto:mikest...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2014 3:06 PM
To: Carl Esparza
Cc: Meteorite List; Mendy Ouzillou
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Definitions of types of falls and finds
Fall, find, anything further is unnecessary clutter. All falls are finds, but
not all finds are falls, the rest is just semantics.
K.I.S.S. - Keep It Simple, Stupid
Michael in so. Cal.
On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 1:01 PM, <cdtuc...@cox.net> wrote:
Mendy,
All due respect to you and Jeff Grossman (one of our Royalty figures) but, to
me a fall is either observed or there is great evidence like damage caused by
the impact. All else is a find. Because after all, all finds are falls or how
else would they be here?
Best Rgards,
Carl
meteoritemax
--
Love & Life
---- Mendy Ouzillou <mendy.ouzil...@gmail.com> wrote:
I've been thinking about the email Jeff sent out some time back and
wanted to propose a slightly different set of names and simplify the
nomenclature.
You can see Jeff's original email below. I think we have all
struggled with defining meteorites that are neither observed falls
nor finds and part of the reason is that we were conflating too many ideas.
Observed fall: Observed to fall, either by eyewitnesses or with instruments.
The event was well documented. Physical evidence associated with the
collected meteorites is consistent with a fresh fall, or, when
collection does not occur immediately, the strewn field location (if
there is one) and appearance taking into account weathering
associated with time on the ground, may be directly attributed to the fall.
Correlated fall: No material was found immediately after an observed
event, but later analysis and physical evidence conclusively points
to an observed event on a specific date or within a very narrow range of dates.
Find: Material was found and no event can be conclusively associated
with an observed event. A find that appears like a fresh fall is
still a find if no observed event can be associated with it.
Feedback welcome.
Mendy Ouzillou
IMCA8393
-----Original Message-----
From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of
Jeff Grossman
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2013 6:26 AM
To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
I should add: my first two categories are types of falls, whereas the
last three are types of finds.
Jeff
On 1/5/2013 8:12 AM, Jeff Grossman wrote:
In all seriousness, I have considered refining, or at least
qualifying the definition of "fall." The categories I've considered
are these, and the definitions are first passes:
Observed fall: observed to fall, either visually or with
instruments, and collected soon after the event. The event was well documented.
Physical evidence associated with the collected meteorites is
consistent with a fresh fall, or, when collection does not occur
immediately, directly points to a fall at the time of the observed event.
Unobserved fall: No observations were made of a fall event, but
physical evidence conclusively points to a fall on a specific date
or within a very narrow range of dates.
Probable fall: In these cases, there was a well-documented meteor
event with characteristics consistent with a meteorite fall,
followed by the collection of meteorites some time later. There is
a strong likelihood that the meteorite fell in the observed event,
but physical evidence is not fully conclusive.
Possible fall: The same situation as a probable fall, but there is
significant doubt about whether the meteorite is connected to the
event or about the reliability of the observations of the event.
Doubtful fall: The same situation as a possible fall, but there is
a high degree of doubt.
This was all suggested by the circumstances surrounding the Benešov
(a) and (b) meteorites, which I would have put in the "possible fall"
category, if such a thing existed.
Jeff
On 1/4/2013 8:57 PM, Michael Farmer wrote:
I find this new attempt to change terminology disturbing. I have
hundreds of old catalogs from the top museums and dealers from
more than 200 years ago till today, all of them list falls and
finds. None of them discuss unobserved falls as an acceptable alternative.
Are we really ready to just accept anything thrown out there, and
watch as all manner of BS is used to discredit hundreds of years
of accepted terminology?
My private collection focuses on witnessed falls, with date and
time and science to back it up.
I am not interested in another group which would include every
meteorite ever to have fallen, since they did actually all fall at
some point.
Well, I guess Anne can delete her birthday fall calendar page
since now we can simply put every NWA on any date you choose to
believe it might have possibly fallen:).
Michael Farmer
Sent from my iPad
On Jan 4, 2013, at 6:47 PM, "Mike Bandli" <fuzzf...@comcast.net> wrote:
If a meteorite falls from the sky and no one is there to hear it,
does it make a sound?
;^]
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Historic Meteorites
www.HistoricMeteorites.com
and join us on Facebook:
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-----Original Message-----
From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com
[mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of
h...@meteorhall.com
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2013 5:36 PM
To: Anne Black
Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; valpar...@aol.com
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
Right, Anne. That is why they are referred to as a "Fall" or a "Find".
Concise!
Cheers, Fred Hall
Every single meteorite ever found on Earth is necessarily the
result of a fall, they are not native to Earth. The only
difference is that some falls are seen, witnessed, and some, the
vast majoriry,
are not.
So calling them Observed or Unobserved falls is logical. That is
what happened to all of them.
That is simple reality.
Anne M. Black
www.IMPACTIKA.com
impact...@aol.com
-----Original Message-----
tFrom: hall <h...@meteorhall.com>
To: Michael Farmer <m...@meteoriteguy.com>
Cc: meteorite-list <meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com>;
valparint <valpar...@aol.com>
Sent: Fri, Jan 4, 2013 6:13 pm
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite Picture of the Day
An "unobserved fall" is two words to describe the one word
that has been used for a century, "Find". The one word "Find" is
good enough for the Catalogue of Meteorites, it was good enough
for Harvey Nininger, and it is what I shall always use. Keep it concise.
Regards, Fred Hall
That would make sense for say New Orleans, where a stone went
through a
house and no one in their right mind would suggest that it did
not
fall at
that time say between 8 am and 4 pm when there was no hole in
the
house,
yet it was not seen to fall.
An old rock found in a field does not suggest anything about
fall
date. So
it is a find, something never really argued against until now?
It has crust which can suggest it is not thousands of years
old, most
of
our Springwater meteorites have black and blue crust but
nevertheless
it
is a find.
Michael Farmer
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 4, 2013, at 10:28 AM, <valpar...@aol.com> wrote:
An "unobserved fall" is, well, a fall that was not observed,
in contradistinction to a fall that was observed. The
terminology of the Meteoritical Bulletin Database is "Observed fall: no".
The information being conveyed is NOT that the meteorite fell
but
that
the fall was not observed.
In general, the questions about falling and finding are:
1) was the fall observed?
2) if so, when was it observed?
3) if not, is there any guesstimate of when it fell?
4) regardless of weather it was observed or not, when was it
actually found?
Paul Swartz
MPOD webmaster
What is an "unobserved fall"? Every meteorite fell at some
point. I have thousands of unobserved falls in my collection.
Michael Farmer
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