I reported every single stone in the NWA 1110 Martian pairing which
amounted to several dozen. I cleaned each individual and made sure the
classifying scientist examined each and every one of them after a type
specimen was submitted. Then an image was taken of the entire lot and
submitted to the Nomenclature Committee. I generally avoid pairings
since they are so troublesome and are piggy-backed constantly. Over ten
lazy dealers self-paired to NWA 1110 which was an official pairing in
itself. Do you think this is fair to honest dealers who do all the heavy
lifting and follow the rules?
Image of entire NWA 1110 lot:
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/get_original_photo.php?recno=5631053
Bulletin entry:
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?sea=NWA+1110&sfor=names&ants=&falls=&valids=&stype=contains&lrec=50&map=ge&browse=&country=All&srt=name&categ=All&mblist=All&rect=&phot=&snew=0&pnt=Normal%20table&code=17124
Remember, that a so-called meteorite "dealer" went to jail for
piggy-backing and self-classification of stones which turned out to be
terrestrial. Now that he is out, he is filling out whistle blower forms
with the IRS on meteorite dealers in the United States in hopes of
collecting a 15% reward.
Stones that are are self-paired carry a lot of risk,
Adam
On 11/3/2017 10:16 AM, Bigjohn Shea wrote:
"Self-pairing is a slippery slope. Allowing laymen/dealers/Moroccans to classify
their own stones opens up the entire meteorite collectable sector to fraud."
Hence my condition that the seller needs to be "reliable". A subjective term,
yes, but it is impossible to formally pair every stone. If that were the expectation from
collectors then very little material would change hands... Also, that is the slippery
slope we live on. The only slope we live on. More on this below...
"Collectors deserve to know what they are getting and how much by weight is really
available."
Black Beauty sells high because it's an interesting classification, not because
of low TKW... Low TKW alone is not a great motivating factor for collectors.
"Unfair trade practices are at an all-time high when "dealers" fail to report
accurate weights and number of stones."
Report to who? Report by who? I can't call up the MetSoc and say, "Hey I found ten
more pieces of BB. Add these 80g to the TKW." It doesn't work that way. Not every
specimen can come in form of an 11.53kg single mass with no pairings... ;-) If I want to
formally pair ten pieces as paired to the original BB, all ten of them need to be
studied, and have a classification written for them. What if 9 of them weigh less than
4g? Who's going to sacrifice 20% plus another 1g for a thin section plus cut loss of
those 9 specimens weighing less than 4g that they paid 500$/g to a Moroccan merchant?
Apply that same logic to every other DCA worldwide and you'll need a workforce of
scientists that cannot exist, all trained to handle the load of pairings.
We don't live in the reality where every piece of meteorite that should be
formally paired can actually get formally paired, and I doubt we ever did or
ever will. We live in the reality where buyers and dealers are responsible for
deciding whether or not they are really buying BB (or any other specific
classification) when they are buying a specimen that hasn't been formally
paired. If they can't do that, then they should only buy from people who they
consider trustworthy.
Stepping off my soapbox...
Have a good one.
John
Sent using the mail.com mail app
On 11/3/17 at 10:51 AM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list wrote:
Self-pairing is a slippery slope. Allowing laymen/dealers/Moroccans to
classify their own stones opens up the entire meteorite collectable
sector to fraud. One just needs to see the damage it created with
Martian meteorites a few years ago when collector confidence was at an
all-time low in regards to material from Mars.
Collectors deserve to know what they are getting and how much by weight
is really available. "Black Beauty" is an example of where, if the real
TKW where known, it would fetch only a fraction of its current price.
The recorded amount doesn't come close to how much is really available.
Unfair trade practices are at an all-time high when "dealers" fail to
report accurate weights and number of stones. Self-pairing,
piggybacking and bypassing all of the protections provided to collectors
by skipping established classification protocols places the entire
market in jeopardy.
Adam
On 11/3/2017 5:25 AM, Bigjohn Shea wrote:
Sorta feels like we are rehashing an old topic in a new form here...
It is common and even justifiable for people to be attached to the concept of
formal pairings and classification for specimens, particularly when they pride
themselves on selling specimens of a well known classification.
However, like most items in the world of collectibles, who you buy from is just as important as
what you are buying. If the source is reliable, then the "self-pairing", or
"probable pairing" can obviously be trusted.
Cheers,
John A. Shea, MD
IMCA 3295
Sent using the mail.com mail app
On 11/3/17 at 3:34 AM, Adam Hupe via Meteorite-list wrote:
How could it possibly be the main mass when it is claimed to be part of
the NWA 8455 "clan" which consists of 15 names under its many pairings?
The single NWA 8455 stone was reported to weigh 2,814 grams which would
make it the current "main mass" of this pairing group.
This also doesn't explain why much more than 3 complete stones reported
under the La'gad pairing have been placed on the market. The TKW of this
pairing was supposed to be only 338 grams yet this amount has been
greatly exceeded.
It appears unclassified (self-paired) stones have been placed on the
market using the La'gad nomenclature. There are many keeping track of
what is being offered.
Adam
On 11/3/2017 12:40 AM, Robert Verish via Meteorite-list wrote:
Thank you, Peter, for posting again (for a 2nd time) the link to the MBD entry
for the La'gad meteorite.
It was a simple, but polite, way to point out that all of the questions that
have been asked about this meteorite have their answers in that entry.
It shouldn't be necessary, but now that the dust-up has settled, I feel
compelled to clear away any lingering misconceptions:
there is no question, this is the La'gad meteorite
there is no question who the classifier is, nor what is the classification
there is no question who found this meteorite, or where it was found
there is no question who owns this meteorite
there is no question at all about the provenance of this meteorite
there is no question that this is the main-mass of the La'gad meteorite.
The stone in the auction weighs 171grams and has had a sample cut from it,
other wise it would weigh 186.24grams. This matches the MBD entry.
Having the stone called-out in the MBD and having it be the main-mass, and
having the type-specimen be from that mass, is a premium for collectors.
Having the coords recorded in the MBD and having a name (like La'gad) and not a
number is a premium for collectors, as well.
Taking everything into consideration, this Lunar would be a positive addition
to any collection.
Bob V.
----------------------------------------------
On Thursday, November 02, 2017 06:18:45 PM, Peter Marmet via Meteorite-list <[email protected]> wrote:
Adam Hupe wrote via Meteorite-list <[email protected]>:
La'gad doesn't show up in the Meteoritical Bulletin. What institution or
scientist examined this exact specimen or is it unofficial or self-paired?
https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=63189
Cheers,
Peter
______________________________________________
______________________________________________
Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the
Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
______________________________________________
Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the
Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
______________________________________________
Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the
Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
______________________________________________
Visit our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/meteoritecentral and the
Archives at http://www.meteorite-list-archives.com
Meteorite-list mailing list
[email protected]
https://pairlist3.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
