So, in all of his, does anyone actually have a genuine measured temperature, genuine measured relative humidity, wind speed (actually monitored not just "guessed"), and wind direction for ANY OF THESE LOCATIONS?
Having said that, it is October, food is cooked at this time in history with wood or coal fuels, we are in the middle of an extremely large lumbering area with millions of acres of pine slashings and toward the end of a historically dry summer/early fall.
I would really like to see the meteorite/cometary factions offer some REAL relative humidity numbers..... to win me more toward the impossible......is that possible?
Next topic, UFO Abductions. Dave Freeman
Sterling K. Webb wrote:
Hi, Paul,
The phrase "all the fires" comes from the newspaper, not me. My comments address only the Peshtigo fire, those small towns near Peshtigo, and the Chicago fire.
Of course, there is a natural background rate of forest and grass fires after a long dry summer, and some of the October 8th fires had been burning earlier and there were fires afterward, too.
But, I'll stand by the word "simultaneous." The Wisconsin fires (nine towns over four counties, including Peshtigo) all started at the same time as nearly as can be determined. The time of the Peshtigo fire (9:30 pm) and the start of the Great Chicago Fire (9:25 pm) are for all practical historical purposes simultaneous, even though they are separated by hundreds of miles. Quite a coincidence!
Hey, if you like coincidences, try this one. The Wisconsin fires are all oriented on a linear track running north and south and pointing at the radiant point of the Draconid shower. Well, OK, within 10 degrees. Still, it's a pretty good coincidence.
The Michigan fires were regarded as complicating the picture (because there were so many small fires already burning) as early as 1872. See "History of the Great Conflagration," by Sheahan and Upson, Chicago, 1872. However, it is difficult to explain the outbreak of intense and major new fires all over the state of Michigan, all starting at 9:30 to 10:00 pm, if each was the independent result of the random flare-up of an existing fire, and the absence of any new fires after October 8th.
There were also fires in Indiana, Iowa, Minnesota, both Dakotas, and in Manitoba and Alberta, Canada. I hold no brief for them (or the Michigan fires). Some, none, or all may have been triggered by air-bursts. I have not been able to uncover any definitive signs of firestorms (very high temperatures, de-oxygenated zones, etc.) in any account of the fires other in than Chicago and Wisconsin. That could be accounted for by the absence of concentrated fuel stocks or by the absence of thermal air-bursts or by their being natural fires, take your pick.
It's mostly a case of attitude. If you accept the likelihood of an airburst causing the Chicago and Peshtigo fires, then the other fires are suspicious but indeterminate. If you go with the one-cow theory, well, fires are fires and they start all the time, so what? Both are reasonable but depend on where your starting point lies.
Sterling ----------------------------------------------------------------- Paul H wrote:
In Could A Meteorite or Comet Cause All The Fires of 1871? http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/meteorite-list/2004-August/143245.html Sterling K. Webb wrote:
"These strange fires were not restricted to the IL-WI-MI triangle centered around the southern end of Lake Michigan. Because of the slowness of communication in 1871, it was not immediately recognized that the fires of October 8, 1871 were scattered over parts of seven states and Canada and may have caused as many as 10,000 deaths."
I would be interested to know where the claim that the
fire actually started in seven states and Canada simultaneously. From what I seen written in well- researched books on the 1871 fire, i.e. "Michigan On Fire" by Betty Sodders in 1997, the fact of the matter is that fires outside IL-WI-MI area were occurring and
started well before October 8 and had been occurring all Fall because of the hot and dry weather that had created a drought that was devastating in its own right. If a person looks at the historical record, he or she would find that it is an absolute misrepresentation of
it in stating that these fires all started simultaneously with the October 8 fire. The so-called "instantaneous" / "simultaneous" nature of the fire, from what I have seen, is pure fiction created by shoddy research and wishful thinking on the part of advocates of the comet
impact theory, who seem to be rather ill-informed of the actual chronology of forest fires in 1871.
For example, a person can read "The Fire that Destroyed Holland, Michigan" at:
http://www.geo.msu.edu/geo333/holland%20fire/hollandfire1.html
In terms of the so-called "simultaneous" nature of the 1871 fire, the web page noted:
"There had already been a threat of danger earlier in the week. Fires kept smoldering and burned barns and houses, but the danger seemed to be far from the city. Then on Sunday, October 9, there were reports that a threatening forest fire was coming."
and
"The community at the time was populated with 2400 residents and for many days previous, these residents had battled and beaten many small fires that had erupted throughout the town."
It is quite clear that fires were starting within the area of the 1871 fire days, even weeks, before October 8. The fire of 1871 simply didn't magically appear on October 8, 1871 out of nowhere but was preceded by numerous smaller fires days, even weeks, before it occurred.
Even more interesting comments about the 1871 fire can be found in "History & Ecology of Fire in Michigan
Wildland Fire In Michigan". at:
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10367_11851-24038--,00.html
This web page stated:
"It was not a single fire but a combination of hundreds of fires, small and large, that had been burning unattended for weeks, only to flare up and unite when conditions became acute."
This statement totally demolishes the case for a meteorite or comet, as the 1871 didn't start on Oct. 8, 1871. Rather the "1871 fire" on October 8 occurred when it exploded into a firestorm when fires only after burning for days, even weeks, before that date. Oct 8 was simply the point that these fires, as they coalesced, exceeded the critical mass needed to explode into massive firestorm.
The historical record also clearly demonstrates the source of these fires. For example, the "History & Ecology of Fire in Michigan Wildland Fire In Michigan"
web page stated:
"Set carelessly or by settlers in clearing land, fires burned everywhere, and ran uncontrolled into the woods and swamps where they continued to smolder."
Also, the "The Fire that Destroyed Holland, Michigan" web page stated:
"In the fall of 1871, the ground was very dry after the long summer. The summer had been very hot and dry and some areas hadn't had rain since June. In Holland, fires began in the piles of sawdust, waste wood, and finished lumber in the yards of the city's several sawmills, and the winds quickly spread the flames throughout the town. The small spark ignited the piles of wood and spread to become one of Michigan's most widespread forest fire."
These quotes point out the fact that that Michigan was having problems with outbreaks of smaller fires, weeks
before October 8. The fire simply didn't magically, simultaneously start on that date, but rather innumerable small fires, which had been burning for weeks before October 8, came together on that date. The fact that smaller fires were burning many days prior to October 8 refutes the claim that everything simultaneously burst
into flame on that date and the so-called anomalous nature of the fire. It is quite obvious that long before October 8, this region was having major problems with outbreaks of multiple, ongoing fires.
The "History & Ecology of Fire in Michigan Wildland Fire In Michigan" stated:
"Michigan was extensively logged toward the end of the 19th century. The White Pine that had once covered Michigan was cut, followed by the hardwood forests, and large expanses of slash (the branches and other debris left after logging) were left behind. Many areas were cleared for farming, and the vegetation was burned to dispose of it. Several catastrophic fires resulted from the indiscriminate burning of slash following logging and land clearing for agriculture."
and
"In the summer of 1871, a drought occurred over much of the Great Lakes region. Slash and debris from logging and land clearing became tinder-dry during the months without rain. From early August no rain fell, pastures and gardens dried up, wells went dry, streams shrank to a mere trickle, and crops failed."
These conditions, i.e. the abundance of fuel, created by careless logging techniques and forest land management; the hot and dry weather and massive drought; and the careless use of fire to clear land made for an ideal situation for the development of a catastrophic fire.
In fact, a fire similar in magnitude to the 1871 fire occurred tens years later in September of 1881 in the Thumb area of Michigan. It was more serve, caused more
damage, and made more people to be homeless than the 1871 fire.
About the 1881 fire, the "History & Ecology of Fire in
Michigan Wildland Fire In Michigan" stated:
"Like the 1871 fire, the fire of 1881 came at the end of an extremely severe drought and was the result of hundreds of land-clearing fires whipped into a seething cauldron of flame by high winds."
This discussion reminds me of a "mysterious" sinking of the Sandra that allegedly sank in a calm sea without any distress signal as described by Charles Berlitz in
his book "The Bermuda Triangle". When Larry Kusche looked into this disappearance, he found that the ship
was half as long as the book stated and it disappeared
in the middle of a hurricane. In this case, as in the 1871 fires, the mystery disappears when the misinformation and folklore is replaced by documented facts.
Yours,
Paul Baton Rouge, LA
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