Hello Sterling, List,

Sterling, your summarizing our (still so fragmentary) knowledge on our solar system in general and on the origin of carbonaceous chondrites in particular, is very much appreciated.

I am not at all expert in cosmology, just, as a chemist, interested in the constitution of the various cc's related to their origin, namely the place (within the primitive solar nebula or with respect to the (proto) sun), where they first formed and place where their parent bodies were approximately located when they collided. It is certain that the chemistry, mineralogy or composition of a material (here a carbonaceous chondrite), which is a priori universally the same in a laboratory on Earth or somewhere in the remote space, obviously depends on the physical, thermodynamic or kinetic parameters that characterize their environment. So that the analysis of a specific meteorite can tell us much about such parameters that characterize(d) selective parts of our solar system.

I have a couple of somewhat naive questions that you possibly can at least partly answer.

1) Among the ungrouped C chondrites are Coolidge, Loongana 001, Belgica 7904, Adelaide and Açfer 094, perhaps some other, my list being probably not exhaustive. Are these meteorites all different in constitution so that they are just thrown to the "ungrouped" class, or do they have some common charcteristics that could be later used to create a new group ? In other words, can we claim that their parent body is the same, or just belongs to a common family or are so far all their parent bodies thought to be different (and, of course, unknown) ?

2) Same question about the group of the three meteorites Kakangari, Lewis Cliff 87232 and Lea County 002, that are at the edge of the achondrite class, although an isotopic analysis suggests some close similarities with CR or even CH groups.

3) Does the fact that Tagish Lake was reported to contain the highest % of carbon ever measured in a cc, namely 5.81% (if my data are correct), still fit the assumption that TL belongs to the CI group and that it can originate from Sun's photosphere ? Also, first analyses of TL suggested its possible cometary origin but it seems that more refined data challenged that statement. Does one have today a better guess about the parent body of CI's in general and of TL in particular ? I know of a recent study (March 2006) that suggested, as CI's parent bodies, asteroïds of type P or D, thus orbiting beyond Saturn, at the edge of Kuyper belt. Any comment on that ?

Thank you very much again!

Best wishes to all,

Zelimir


A 19:54 21/09/2006 -0500, vous avez écrit :
Hi, E.P.,


   The truth is we really don't know what comets
and asteroids actually are, or whether there's a real
distinction between them, or if they are just keywords
derived (mistakenly) from the two extremes of a
continuous spectrum of bodies with every intermediate
state fully represented.

   There are "comets" that "die" and turn into
"asteroids," and there are "asteroids" that suddenly
develop a coma and become "comets." But the
two terms may not be a descriptions of two
essentially different classes of bodies at all. After
we sample and/or visit 50 or 100 of them, we'll have
a much better idea...

   The association of carbonaceous chondrites with
"comets" is supposed by many, but not ever demonstrated.
No meteorite has ever been definitively linked to a comet.
There are no "known" samples of cometary material. (We
may have it, but if we do, we don't know it...) On the
chance that CC's may be linked to cometary material
or be similar to it...

   Here's a summary on Carbonaceous Chondrites
(quickly ripped from the Net, not my data-leaky
brain). The metal content runs from 50% for
Bencubbinites, 15% for CH type, down to about
1% for other classes. Some classes have clearly
never been warmed about 50 degrees absolute;
some people have suggested that the CH class
formed intra-Mercurially. Obviously, all carbon
containing meteorites didn't start out in the same
single nursery! Another indicator that the heresy
that the early system was very well stirred might
be true.

   Carbonaceous chondrites account for about
3% of all known chondrites. They are classified
according to the proportion and size of the chondrules
they contain (one rare subclass lacks chondrules).
The average contents of CC's are:  Carbon, 2.0%;
Metals, 1.8%; Nitrogen, 0.2%; Silicates, 83.0%;
Water, 11.0%. At most, they can be 20% water and
can contain as much as 4% carbon. Carbonaceous
Chondrites contain around 5% kerogen.

The sub-classes are:

CI chondrites, only a handful of which are known, are
named for the Ivuna meteorite. They have very few
chondrules and are composed mostly of crumbly,
fine-grained material that has been changed a lot by
exposure to water on the parent asteroid. As a result
of this aqueous alteration, CI chondrites contain up
to 20% water in addition to various minerals altered
in the presence of water, such as clay-like hydrous
phyllosilicates and iron oxide in the form of magnetite.
They also harbor organic matter, including polycyclic
aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) and amino acids,
which makes them important in the search for clues
to the origin of life in the universe. It remains uncertain
whether they once had chondrules and refractory
inclusions that were later destroyed during the formation
of hydrous minerals, or they lacked chondrules from
the outset. CIs have never been heated above 50°C,
indicating that they came from the outer part of the
solar nebula. They are especially interesting because
their chemical compositions, with the exception of
hydrogen and helium, closely resemble that of the
Sun's photosphere. They thus have the most primitive
compositions of any meteorites and are often used as
a standard for gauging how much chemical fractionation
has been experienced by materials formed throughout
the solar system.

CM chondrites are named for the Mighei meteorite
that fell in Mykolaiv province, Ukraine, in 1889.They
contain small chondrules (typically 0.1 to 0.3 mm in
diameter) and similar-sized refractory inclusions.
They also show less aqueous alteration than, and
about half the water content of, CI chondrites. Like
CIs, however, they contain a wealth of organic material -
more than 230 different amino acids in the case of the
famous Murchison meteorite. Comparisons of
reflectance spectra point to the asteroid 19 Fortuna
or, possibly, the largest asteroid, 1 Ceres, as
candidate parent bodies.

CV chondites are named for the Vigarano meteorite
that fell in Italy in 1910. They resemble ordinary
chondrites and have large, well-defined chondrules
of magnesium-rich olivine, often surrounded by iron
sulfide, in a dark-gray matrix of mainly iron-rich olivine.
They also contain calcium-aluminum inclusions (CAIs) -
the most ancient minerals known in the solar system -
that typically make up more than 5% of the meteorite.

CO chondrites are named for the Ornans meteorite
that fell in France in 1868. They some similarities in
composition and chemistry to the CV chondrites and
may have formed with them in the same region of
the early solar system. As in the CV group, CAIs
are present but are commonly much smaller and
spread more sparsely in the matrix. Also typical
of COs are small inclusions of free metal, mostly
nickel-iron, that appear as tiny flakes on the polished
surfaces of fresh, unweathered samples.

CK chondrites are named for the Karoonda meteorite
that fell in Australia in 1930. They were initially thought
to be members of the CV group but are now grouped
separately since they differ in some respect from all
other carbonaceous chondrites. Their dark gray or
black coloration is due to a high percentage of
magnetite dispersed in a matrix of dark silicates
consisting of iron-rich olivine and pyroxene. This
shows they formed under oxidizing conditions, yet
there is no sign of aqueous alteration. Elemental
abundances and oxygen isotopic signatures suggest
that CKs are closely related to CO and CV types.
Most CK chondrites contain large CAIs and some
show shock veins that point to a violent impact history.

CR chondrites are named for the Renazzo meteorite
that fell in Italy in 1824. They are similar to CMs in
that they contain hydrosilicates, traces of water, and
magnetite. The main difference is that CRs contain
reduced metal in the form of nickel-iron and iron
sulfide that occurs in the black matrix as well as in
the large chondrules that make up about 50% of the
meteorites. A possible parent body is Pallas, the
second largest asteroid. The CH and CB chondrites
are so closely related to the CRs that all three groups
may have come from the same parent or at least from
the same region of the solar nebula.

CH chondrites are named for their High metal content.
They contain up to 15% nickel-iron by weight and are
closely related in chemical composition to the CRs and
CBs. They also show many fragmented chondrules,
most of which, along with the less abundant CAIs, are
very small. As with the CRs, the CHs contain some
phyllosilicates and other traces of alteration by water.
One theory suggests that the CHs formed very early
in the solar system's history from the hot primordial
nebula inside what is today the orbit of Mercury, later
to be transported to outer, cooler regions of the nebula
where they have been preserved to this day. Mercury
may have formed from similar, metal-rich material, which
would explain its high density and extraordinary large
metal core.

CB chondrites, also known as bencubbites, are named
for the prototype found near Bencubbin, Australia, in
1930. Only a handful of these unusual meteorites are
known. All are composed of more than 50% nickel-iron,
together with highly reduced silicates and chondrules
similar to those found in members of the CR group.

C ungrouped chondrites (C UNGRs) fall outside the
other groups and probably represent other parent
bodies of carbonaceous chondrites or source regions
of the primordial solar nebula.


Sterling K. Webb
----------------------------------------------
----- Original Message ----- From: "E.P. Grondine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] 2003 EL61, IN PERSON


Hi Sterling -

With Chiemgau under "challenge", the only evidence of
heavy elements in comets that I can easily point to is
the increased iridium at the KT boundary.

I can't really comment on metals in carbonaceous
chondrite meteorites, and right now I would be most
interested in data from others on these.

good hunting,
Ed

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Prof. Zelimir Gabelica
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ENSCMu, Lab. GSEC,
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