Dear Doug, You mentioned the Navajo. The Dene (Navajo) didn`t arrive New Mexico and the American Southwest until around 1500AD; and it has been proposed that the demise of the Puebloan (Casas Grande) culture MAY have been contributed to by their arrival.
http://www.lapahie.com/Timeline_to_1491.cfm Casas Grande pre-dates their arrival. You may do a Web search for more information beyond this link: http://whc.unesco.org/pg.cfm?cid=31&id_site=560 Best, Dirk...Tokyo --- MexicoDoug <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Whooooe, Martin, thanks for the kind comments -- I > re-read my post, your > words and by all means did take one comment very > much to heart. I'm guilty > as charged for not giving further consideration to > other meteoritically > interested cultures between those Germanic and > ancients. I think Ed would > be the better expert in that department on this side > of the Atlantic. You > speak of the Aztecs as a culture with as rich of a > treatment of things > meteoritic as the medieval traditions in your > lands... I'd like to know more > about that. > > I'd be interested in knowing what meteorites the > Aztecs venerated, feared, > deified, or imbued with magical qualities. Are you > perhaps thinking of > Xocotl the Aztec god of fire and Dark and occult > side of planet Venus? I > think he was more likey born spewn from a volcano, > of which there are many > in his territory, or as legend goes, a ball of > feathers fell in a temple his > virgin mother then bore him and others. So Xocotl's > mother may have been > fertilized by a meteorite in a stretch of faith (the > feathers could be > thought of as cometary)...but these are much further > musings than others > I've made:-) > > Maybe your reference is meant to consider the over > 1.5 ton Casas Grandes > Iron meteorite mummy found in the ruins of the > temple of a mysterious > peoples of Mexico and carted out to Philadelphia, > USA. I say mysterious > peoples as I don't think you can call them Aztecs > with certainty, and they > may actually be somewhat Navajo. Unfortunately, the > information on that > culture is so scant, circumstantial and too > inconclusive. But the Casas > Grandes meteorite had fallen tens of thousands of > years before that region > was populated. Thus, at best, one can imagine that > it was appreciated for > its heft and unique nearly indestructable > properties. > > The reason I'm not sure we can call that culture > Aztec, is because the > business end of the great Aztec empire was generally > disconnected and > geographically no where near the southern limits of > that mysterious culture, > to make tribute payments to the empire. In fact, it > seems to just > mysteroiusly vanished without battle before the > Spanish first appeared > anywhere on the scene. There is contentious > speculaion that that particular > culture was from northern New Mexico near Colorado, > and Ed may be able to > add more on that subject. It seems to me they were > their own independent > culture eventually centered in Paquimé, Chihuahua, > very close to El Paso > TX - Juarez MX, where the meteorite was dug up. > Hopefully we can learn > more, but anything new will be an uphill battle the > way the evidence is so > limited and thus dominated more by speculations. I > am not aware of too much > shared divinity evidence though a minimal amount is > no doubt common. > > The the next meteoritic thing in my neck of the > desert, sitting above the > northern tip of Mesoamerica, I can mention are the > few tektites found way > down in the ancient Mayan city of Tikal - but that > would be in Guatemala > already. These unique chards which are mysteries > themselves as no more > paired have been found after extensive scientific > field work and study, and > they are generally Chicxulub era mintage. > > What surprises me, is not the great deal of evidence > of meteorites in the > Aztec and Mayan cities, but rather the lack of it. > I really would have > thought more references, stonework or carvings could > have been passed along. > We're talking about a culture with debatably > sophistiated astronomers and > celestial timekeepers rivaling the Europeans and > Arabs during periods in > their history. I'd be very interested to be > reminded if I have missed any > mythology here even with the destruction here that > has ensued there has been > a great deal of stoneworks preserved and I am > unaware of meteorites and > comets showing on any of them despite the > observatories and sophistication. > > Martin, I appreciate your kind humility regarding > the historical record of > Germanic accomplishments. I wasn't referring to > your Grimms' tale, but > rather the Grimms' "Star Money" which I posted the > other day. On the other > hand the accomplishments of Chinese, Arab, and > Japanese, among others > certainly survived in some shapes and forms and > deserve a more important > mention than I foolishly brushed by at 4:00 AM. I > think though you've > assumed a bit too much about my thoughts of rites > and legend and today's > Germany as a nation. My use of German- and Germanic > was intended to cover > everyone from King Arthur to the Vikings, I hope > Gauls (not sure are they > Germanic?), as well as the Barvarians...Am I wrong > with this? The qualities > of these peoples and their attraction to these > metals for weapons, Excalibur > itself I mentioned, the sword legend would have > pulled from a stone...etc... > Perhaps the Romans with the push for de-paganization > most effectively > stiffled throughout the empire idolization of metals > and weapons and that is > the simple reason - I don't know. > > But, since you mention the enlightenment to > Chladni's time for things > meteoritic, I'd say be careful not to be a fish in a > fishbowl who doesn't > appreciate the water that surrounds him as we > thirsty and envious cats are > looking in with our saucery eyes for a bite to eat. > Take explorers as > recent as Alexander von Humboldt, who I think > recovered meteoritical iron > from Chupaderos MX most probably a few short months > _before_ the French fall > in L'Aigle reached him. Then, he went to visit his > good friend Thomas > Jefferson in Washington for several weeks they > managed to socialize many, > many stimulating hours their mutual satisfaction, > and I fully suspect that > Jefferson would have been given the opportunity to > see this, after their > extensive scientific and social discussions. > Interestingly, L'Aigle must > have been old news to Baron von Humboldt once he > traveled from Mexico to > Washington DC, and Humboldt was certainly up on the > geological sciences from > France (as a matter of fact he and Jefferson even > corresponded in French on > ocassion). This puts a different perspective > entirely on Jefferson's famous > satirical Yankee comments, especially knowing the > master politician and > skilled manipulator of the press in the new anarchy > he delighted in. The > Secretary of State had to offer the Baron a visa and > permit to carry many > scientific samplings from Latin America, Any more > info you might have here? > Would this have been discussed? Was the iron > meteorite actually collected > in 1803 by Humboldt, part of the bill of lading, or > did it somehow get into > his possession at a later date?? These are burning > questions. Humboldt > helped Jefferson enough to plan together the > expedition for the Lousiana > Purchase, and how to collect, I wonder if they > corresponded in 1807 about > the Weston fall? > > I even live near a nice street named after Humboldt > in Mexico. Less than > five short years in Latin America...the records of > his 12 months of travels > throughout Mexico are no doubt archived with great > precision somewhere in > Berlin and in scattered reprints in Mexico. Which > street in Munich is named > after a Mexican explorer :-) ? > > Best wishes, Doug > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Martin Altmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'MexicoDoug'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:33 AM > Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels > -gifts II > > > Oops Doug, > > Thou shalt not over-interpret. > I can't find any increased interest in nor any > cultural reception of > meteorites in German history, transcending those in > other countries. > Meteorites were vulgar superstition, in best case > they were kept in cabinets > as curiosities (and later after Enlightment thrown > to trash). > In the Grimm collection of folk tales, the Elbogen > chunk isn't mentioned as > felt from sky and it's only one story of a > metamorphosis of many others (in > this case an addendum of the tale, where some > dwarves were turned into > stones). > Nor aren't there many stones left from pre-1800, nor > was meteoritics a > monopole of german scientists. There were many more > from French, Poland, > Russia... > And if you want to ride the nationalistic horse, > "Chladni" is a Slovak (or > was it Slovene name), hehe. > Science always was international, always. Remember > the times of the islamic > occupation in Spain, where for centuries people > bashed their heads in, but > on the other hand, the Islamic scientists were > authorities in the christian > literature like the old Greeks and the Church > Fathers. > > Perhaps a difference is, that Chladni collected > reports from old falls, > naturally a lot from German sources too, but I'm > sure, that if one would > study the chronicles in other languages and > countries, there are also a lot > to be found. (recently someone sent me a cool > fireball report from a local > Church's chronicle from 17th century). > > And if you refer to the Ensisheim stone, remember > the pamphlets following > the fall, where that fall was taken for an evil > omen. > Thus following the hysterical tradition, that all > uncommon phenomena in > nature would be bad signs of God's wrath - and in > this respect, Europe is > quite unique, because, as far as I know, in all > other cultures, where > meteorites are mentioned (or found), meteorites > never had bad connotations. > > " and that Generally that Germans attributed > mystical > powers to meteorites like no other culture since the > ancients". > > See above and certainly not: Indonesia, Mongolia, > Japan, the Inuit, the > American Indians, for the Aztecs, Inka ect, you have > to look, Arabia and so > on I guess quite everywhere meteorites were > venerated or at least used for > tools or jewellery. Would be a nice new thread! > > Has anyone pictures of the bracelets of meteoritic > iron from 7th-5th century > b.C. in the museum of Czestochowa Rakow in Poland, > Marcin? > > Eh and Doug, there wasn't any German national > "identity" until 19th century. > And go a little bit back, Charlemagne, were where > there the French, where > the Germans? It was always multi-ethnical. The > racism, if I let the history > of colonisation aside and the exaggerated > nationalism was rather an > invention of the 19th century. And thus I guess > Sterling and me didn't want > to depress you, as there is hope, for at least some > parts on the globe. > Meanwhile we are living in a much more > communicative, mobile (and > hedonistic?) world, in Europe people remember the > high price they had to pay > for nationalistic insanity, a little bit bad is, > that the principle of Cold > War had worked well... > At least Doug, the preconditions are somewhat > better, than they were ever > before. > > Let's have new thread. Pre A.D. 1800 meteoritics! > Dirk tell us about Asia! > Norbert, Australia? > Marie-Pelé France? > Serguej, Russia? > Andrzej Poland. > Rob, da Commonwealth? > Christian K&K meteorites. > Manjoi - India! > Joern Germany. > Africa? > Doug - Middle America > And so on! > > Buckleboo! > Martin > > > > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Im Auftrag von > MexicoDoug > Gesendet: Montag, 27. November 2006 11:54 > An: Sterling K. Webb > Cc: [email protected] > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels > -gifts II > > Hi Sterling, > > 1-The fact that the French army wanted to enrage the > Bohemians by tossing > the Elbogen iron meteorite in the well is > indisputable. This meteorite is > Grade A Prime cultural heritage for Bohemia where > many ethnic Germans lived > and was ethnically a contested territory in my > understanding. The French > actions were part of the hostilities kicked off by > the War of Jenkins' Ear > which morphed into that of Austrian Succession > there. The exciting point > being that Germans/Bohemians had a cultural > appreciation of meteorites which > > truly raptures my imagination with pride, cultural > curiousity and a transfer > > of a certain degree of magic in my mind's eye, due > to my own fascination > with steel from space. > > 2- My mention of the then Governer of Georgia, Gen. > Oglethorpe's bellicose > expedition of Georgians and Carolinians was to bring > to your attention this > large American campaign in the War of Jenkins' Ear, > intended to correct your > > statement that Americans never had the odd pleasure > of partaking in that > euphonious war (Soundly put!). > > Nothing much I can do about wars despite my heart's > desires, other than hope > > I would not be called to participate in them. I > really have absolutely no > opinions or desire to think about human > intraspecies' inhumanity. > > I'll tender a request for a favor that my kindly > hijacked thread be returned > > to romantic, fantasy and other fictional books on > meteorites. I have to > admit to believing that anything goes in a > discussion group, but was unhappy > > that a thread on romantic and adventure novels with > meteorites in their > plots turned into a discussion of how Europe had > more and longer wars than > the USA. :-( !!!!! > > . ... to imagine the relationship between > Caledfwlch, Gram, Hrunting, > Naegling, the Magical Giant Sword that slew > Grendel's mother, so difficult > to hoist or lift up is a recurring theme, and > meteorites, which held a > special fascination in Germanic cultures and > craftmanships is very amazing, > though. The stone Ensisheim, which fell in German > territory at the time was > > recognized by the German Emperor in 1492 to have > come from the sky, and > ordered conserved thanks to him. It is interesting > that the "civilized > world" didn't really "accept" that rock fell from > space until L'Aigle > pummeled the last holdouts in France more than 300 > years later, like a > thunder fromThor's hammer. With the greatest > respect to France, who seem to > > have been ahead of the Americans (one can easily > imagine that the Americans > followed the French lead), I believe the > Franco-Germanic relationship > strongly colored the French acceptance of > meteoritical phenomena and gets to > > the heart of meteorite status in the milieu. I.e., > I bet in the 1740's part > > of the reason the Elbogen meteorite got such harsh > treatment was due to the > memory of Ensisheim having been declared a favorable > German icon to unite in > > the war against France, and that Generally that > Germans attributed mystical > powers to meteorites like no other culture since the > ancients. I think the > French were strongly influenced by the widespread > meteorite reverance > thoughout Germanic cultures (take Grimms' tales and > Martin's stories of the > converted burgrave on Elbogen, and German > fascination with hammers, axes and > > metal in general and a its possible relationship to > meteoritic iron), which > provided resistance to recognizing that meteorites > really did come from > heaven as their competing Germanic neighbors > believed... > > Best wishes, > Doug > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sterling K. Webb" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Meteorite List" > <[email protected]> > Cc: "MexicoDoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Martin > Altmann" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:04 PM > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels > -gifts II > > > > Hi, Doug, Martin, List, > > > > Operating on the principle that the longer I > talk, > > the more likely my chance to really annoy someone > > becomes, I snipped a lot of sentences out of what > > I originally wrote. > > > > The history of the USA up until 1900-1910 is > best > > described as a kind of "ongoing conflict," > somewhat > > short of formal war. I was going to say that, so > no > > disagreement there. In fact, the history of most > nations > > can be so described with some accuracy. > > > > Even with Martin's addition of a few hundred > more > > wars for Europe, there's a background of conflict > that > > generates them. The Serbian obsession with Kosovo, > > its ancient "homeland," dates from a conquest late > in > > the first millennium AD of the people who still > live there, > > the Illyrians, or rather their descendents, who > were there > > before the first millennium BC, which makes the > Serbian > > "historical" claim look a little silly. > > > > But these ethnic histories solve nothing; one > has only > > to look at the Middle East to have that > demonstrated. > > Such arguments over who is exclusively entitled to > the > > "land" are endless, unending, and productive of > nothing > > but carnage, even between folks as completely and > > totally indistinguishable as two Irishmen. > > > > United Statesians (so as to avoid the > over-broad usage > > of "Americans") mostly have what is so often > called a > > "naive" view: "Why doesn't everybody just forget > about > > settling the score for the past and try to work on > solving > > the problems that exist NOW?" > > > > The scorn of the sophisticated not > withstanding, there > > is a another name for this: SANITY. If the price > of this > > mental health is to be achieved by, say, modern > Europeans, > > acting as if THEY never had a war, being morally > superior > > to those so backward as to get stuck in conflicts, > well, > > sanity is worth that. That IS the idea -- to dump > the past. > > "History," said James Joyce a century ago, "is a > nightmare > > I'm trying to wake up from." > > > >> does Europe have a "Battle of Little Bighorn", > which... > >> was the fight leading to the demise of a race of > people? > > > > Duh. Yeah! And the Sioux (and all the other > tribes > > that participated in an INDIAN victory there) > still exist, > > no thanks to General Custer, just as Jews still > exist, no > > thanks to... We weren't going to drag up the past, > > were we? > > > >> if the Indians had caught on quicker... > > > > American natives caught on right away. They > each > > and all sat in council about what to do about the > odd > > newcomers from the very year they first showed up! > > Every strategy you can imagine was tried. It's > common- > > place to present these centuries of native > statecraft as > > if they all sat there like idiots until the late > 1800's, but > > that notion is what is really demeaning. A delay > of a > > potential annihilation for centuries is a major > achievement; > > there are innumerable spots around the globe where > > indigenous peoples have been destroyed in a decade > > or three. As for uniting scores, even hundreds, of > > nations with no common language, belief, or > culture, > > ask Tecumseh about how that worked out... > > > > The real "war" was epidemiological. The "Black > > Death" made its way into North America ahead of > the > > Europeans, in the 15th century, and was followed > > shortly by a flood of new European diseases in the > > next century. Europeans, in person, were entering > > devastated and de-populated lands everywhere in > > the "New World," north and south. Not that they > > weren't trying to kill the locals, just that their > efforts > > were puny compared to what the microbes (whose > > existence both sides were unaware of) > accomplished. > > It's hard to slow down an invasion when your own > > population is reduced by up to 90%! > > > > I'm sorry you were so upset by General > Oglethorpe > > and the Battle of Bloody Marsh, Doug, but I will > remind > > you that it took place after Jerkins carted his > ear-in-a-jar > > up to the British Parliment and got Walpole to > declare > > the Ear War. Had the fortunes of war fallen > differently, > > why, you would be walking the picturesque calles > de > > Neuvo Atlanta, capitol of Las Floridas del Norte, > while > > avoiding the camera-toting USian tourists in their > garish > > shirts and plastic flip-flops... > > > > I would love to "kick around" the causes of the > > five-day "Football War" with you, Doug, but I > think > > that it breaks the tenuous chain that links > Jenkins' ear > > to a wet meteorite in a moat surrounded by mocking > > Frenchmen! > > > > > > Sterling K. Webb > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > And Bill just summed it up in three sentences > better > > than either of us, I think... > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "MexicoDoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Sterling K. Webb" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:56 PM > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels > -gifts II > > > > > >> Sterling wrote: > >> "1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear" > >> "And [the USA's] certainly never managed to have > a war as magnificently > >> named as "The War of Jenkins' Ear"! Now, that's > how to name a war! Clear, > > >> concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's > all about." > >> > >> Hey Sterling, > >> > >> Hah! remember studies in Western Civ - between > Physics and philosophy > >> class :-) -, really, the USA has darn well so > managed to have a war > >> equally magnificient in name as the "War of > Jenkin's Ear". > >> > >> It was called "The War of Jenkin's Ear"; Same > Jenkins - and it wasn't > >> Jenkin's other ear. Don't forget that Jenkin's > ear was supposedly > >> severed in the Americas, and he was as English as > George Washington at > >> the time. So I'd Argue that not only did the > Americans participate in > >> that war - they also started it. Not to mention > the USA started the > >> funiest named war of all: The "Quasi-War" as > thanks to the French right > >> after the French supported the American > Independence effort. > >> > >> That particular Jenkin's Ear war in the 1740's is > actually the same war > >> that was contracted by the European continent and > spread to Bohemia and > >> resulted in the French tossing the Elbogen Iron > meteorite down the to the > > >> bottom of the Bohemian well where it rusted for > 40 years. It was a small > > >> world back then, too. In the USA, in the great > American State of > >> Georgia, the military general who founded Georgia > wasted no time to > >> marshal his proud Savannah compatriots and > adventurous Charlestonians out > > >> of South Carolina to pillage everything from > Jacksonville, Florida to St. > > >> Augustine, and that was only openers. > >> > >> Oh the United States has had oogles more > practically nameless wars than > >> you give it credit for in those years. They > don't Google easily out of a > > >> database like your nice European ones, but they > were bloodier if Indians > >> are men considered equal in the eyes of the > Creator. You've got to > >> consider that in Europe all those wars were > spread among 20-30 countries. > > >> How many Indian real nations do you think the > singular USA trounced in a > >> religious ferver to achieve its destiny? The USA > is a nation that was > >> perpetually at war on its own and its extended > frontiers. There are more > > >> Indian wars alone, than Indian nations that > yielded in defeat against the > > >> cleansing of the continent from Atlantic to > Pacific. Take Florida, which > > >> heaped war upon wars, genocide and forced > relocation. Or maybe > >> Missouri - if the Indians had caught on quicker, > you might be living in a > > >> teepee today, or at least your neighbor :-) > >> > >> As for the lack of colorful names of wars in the > USA even without > >> considering who started the War of Jenkin's Ear, > does Europe have a > >> "Battle of Little Bighorn", which is a battle the > war easily can assume > >> for the name, and really was the fight leading to > the demise of a race of > > >> people? If that isn't enough, how about the > Gipper's "Star Wars", who has > > >> one of those programs besides George Lucas? And > I am convinced that the > >> US participated as a silent partner in the > infamous "Football War," as > >> well... > >> > >> Best wishes, Doug > >> (no slights to any nation, no offense; we are who > we are and I can live > >> with that just fine, until someone else tosses a > spectacular iron in a > >> well to fester. Guess the Evian was too depleted > in minerals for their > >> taste) > >> > >> > >> thread truncated... > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [email protected] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > ______________________________________________ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [email protected] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! 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