Hi Dirk, Doug - RE: Navaho and their role in the SW sequence:
My book "Man and Impact in the Americas" covers "Mushkogean" traditions of their migrations, and events around Sunset Volcano. It's available for $34.95 from amazon.com, or send $35 to P.O. Box 158, Kempton, IL 60946 and I'll sign it for you and pick up the postage. good hunting, Ed --- MexicoDoug <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hola Sterling, Got the handoff, shall I make it to > all the 9 yards' > line....Hardly a hijacking since a detailed analysis > of War & Peace was > kindly left to the scholars:-) > > Wow, Sterling, Nice catch, I had never read far > enough into the Tikal > tektites to find that they had been shown distinct > from the K/T boundary > material, thanks for the correction. The fact that > the were transported > there with source unknown was enough to turn me off > about pursuing it - and > it is too easy for the sloppy reader to assume a > Chicxulub relationship due > to the proximity. I now wonder if the tektites were > truly paired, or can be > paired, to any Indochinites. But the concept of > import from Asia or Oceania > is TOTALLY COOL, especially if you've every made the > journey to Tikal as I > did (before knowing about the tektites' find > unfortunately), you'll > definitely agree that it is not a likely place for > things to appear. > Something like a Mayan version of "Tarzan and the > Lost City" comes to mind. > > Saludos Dirk and thanks for the kind comments > below... what you mention of > the Navajo's possible role in the disappearance of > the Casas Grandes culture > could make perfect sense in a parallel way. Just a > minor clarification, and > that is that it is not certain that the Casas > Grandes culture which had the > big iron meteorite excavated from the Paquime temple > were any more Puebloan > than the were Aztec - though both elements have been > argued. There are > currently no exclusive answers to that question of > origin, which makes it > nicely mysterious...The confusion here arises in > that the Arizona locality > "Casa Grande" is a different locality from the > Northern Mexico locality of > "Casas Grandes". The are sufficiently > geographically close that you still > could be right, though in the Mexican Casas Grandes > case is more probably > not a pure Puebloan race than something different > and independent. And > their building styles were similar, only there were > just lots more houses in > Paquime...! (hence Casas Grandes vs. the singular ?? > :-)) Thanks for the > links. > > Best wishes, Doug > > Dirk kindly wrote: > Dear Doug, You mentioned the Navajo. The Dene > (Navajo) didn`t > arrive New Mexico and the American Southwest until > around 1500AD; and it has been proposed that the > demise of the Puebloan (Casas Grande) culture MAY > have > been contributed to by their arrival. > > http://www.lapahie.com/Timeline_to_1491.cfm > > Casas Grande pre-dates their arrival. You may do > a > Web search for more information beyond this link: > > http://whc.unesco.org/pg.cfm?cid=31&id_site=560 > > Best, Dirk...Tokyo > > > > > Sterling wrote: > > > > Hi, Doug, > > > > Hijacking your nice thread again... > > > > The tektites in Tikal didn't "find their way" > there > > by any other means than falling out of the sky. > They > > have been found in the temples, anciently > collected, > > and one much more degraded one has been found > > in the forests surrounding. > > > > Alan Hildebrandt dated them and they fall right > > into the upper end of the dating spread for > Australite/ > > Indochinite tektites, which, surprise! they look > just > > exactly like. Grab your globe and give it a twirl. > > Tikal's "antipodal point" is on the western edge > of > > the Australo-Asian strewn field. Likewise, an > Ivorite > > was recovered from off shore of the Australian > coast. > > equally antipodal to Ivory Coast, unless you think > > "the currents" carried it there -:) laughing... > > > > Casa Grande was found in 1867: "A mass of > 3407lb > > was found in an ancient tomb, E.G. Tarayre (1867). > > L. Fletcher (1890) implies that this mass was > presented > > to the Smithsonian Institution in 1876. First > Description, > > W. Tassin (1902). Analysis, 7.74 %Ni, G.P. Merrill > (1913). > > Historical note, O.E. Monnig (1939)..." > > > > Somebody asked for referrences on meteorite > collecting > > by early American cultures (Maybe Ed). Here's one > about > > Hopewell meteorite collecting, except it goes on > to discuss > > dozens of other cultures, locales, and meteorites > including Casa > > Grandes. It's a nice piece of work by Olaf Prufer: > > > https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/1811/4817/1/V61N06_341.pdf > > > > No surprize, H. H. Nininger wrote "METEORITE > COLLECTING > > AMONG ANCIENT AMERICANS" in 1938. That paper can > be > > found at: > > > http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-7316(193807)4%3A1%3C39%3AMCAAA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-W > > but it's where no mere mortal without official > access can view it... > > You can read the first page, though, which is > enough to see that > > it covers much the same ground as the paper > previously cited > > (up above this one) which you can get to see (and > download). > > > > Handing the thread back to you, Doug. > > > > > > Sterling K. Webb > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "MexicoDoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Martin Altmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Cc: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:03 PM > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels > -gifts II > > > > > > Whooooe, Martin, thanks for the kind comments -- > I re-read my post, your > > words and by all means did take one comment very > much to heart. I'm > > guilty > > as charged for not giving further consideration to > other meteoritically > > interested cultures between those Germanic and > ancients. I think Ed would > > be the better expert in that department on this > side of the Atlantic. You > > speak of the Aztecs as a culture with as rich of a > treatment of things > > meteoritic as the medieval traditions in your > lands... I'd like to know > > more > > about that. > > > > I'd be interested in knowing what meteorites the > Aztecs venerated, feared, > > deified, or imbued with magical qualities. Are > you perhaps thinking of > > Xocotl the Aztec god of fire and Dark and occult > side of planet Venus? I > > think he was more likey born spewn from a volcano, > of which there are many > > in his territory, or as legend goes, a ball of > feathers fell in a temple > > his > > virgin mother then bore him and others. So > Xocotl's mother may have been > > fertilized by a meteorite in a stretch of faith > (the feathers could be > > thought of as cometary)...but these are much > further musings than others > > I've made:-) > > > > Maybe your reference is meant to consider the over > 1.5 ton Casas Grandes > > Iron meteorite mummy found in the ruins of the > temple of a mysterious > > peoples of Mexico and carted out to Philadelphia, > USA. I say mysterious > > peoples as I don't think you can call them Aztecs > with certainty, and they > > may actually be somewhat Navajo. Unfortunately, > the information on that > > culture is so scant, circumstantial and too > inconclusive. But the Casas > > Grandes meteorite had fallen tens of thousands of > years before that region > > was populated. Thus, at best, one can imagine > that it was appreciated for > > its heft and unique nearly indestructable > properties. > > > > The reason I'm not sure we can call that culture > Aztec, is because the > > business end of the great Aztec empire was > generally disconnected and > > geographically no where near the southern limits > of that mysterious > > culture, > > to make tribute payments to the empire. In fact, > it seems to just > > mysteroiusly vanished without battle before the > Spanish first appeared > > anywhere on the scene. There is contentious > speculaion that that > > particular > > culture was from northern New Mexico near > Colorado, and Ed may be able to > > add more on that subject. It seems to me they > were their own independent > > culture eventually centered in Paquimé, Chihuahua, > very close to El Paso > > TX - Juarez MX, where the meteorite was dug up. > Hopefully we can learn > > more, but anything new will be an uphill battle > the way the evidence is so > > limited and thus dominated more by speculations. > I am not aware of too > > much > > shared divinity evidence though a minimal amount > is no doubt common. > > > > The the next meteoritic thing in my neck of the > desert, sitting above the > > northern tip of Mesoamerica, I can mention are the > few tektites found way > > down in the ancient Mayan city of Tikal - but that > would be in Guatemala > > already. These unique chards which are mysteries > themselves as no more > > paired have been found after extensive scientific > field work and study, > > and > > they are generally Chicxulub era mintage. > > > > What surprises me, is not the great deal of > evidence of meteorites in the > > Aztec and Mayan cities, but rather the lack of it. > I really would have > > thought more references, stonework or carvings > could have been passed > > along. > > We're talking about a culture with debatably > sophistiated astronomers and > > celestial timekeepers rivaling the Europeans and > Arabs during periods in > > their history. I'd be very interested to be > reminded if I have missed any > > mythology here even with the destruction here that > has ensued there has > > been > > a great deal of stoneworks preserved and I am > unaware of meteorites and > > comets showing on any of them despite the > observatories and > > sophistication. > > > > Martin, I appreciate your kind humility regarding > the historical record of > > Germanic accomplishments. I wasn't referring to > your Grimms' tale, but > > rather the Grimms' "Star Money" which I posted the > other day. On the > > other > > hand the accomplishments of Chinese, Arab, and > Japanese, among others > > certainly survived in some shapes and forms and > deserve a more important > > mention than I foolishly brushed by at 4:00 AM. I > think though you've > > assumed a bit too much about my thoughts of rites > and legend and today's > > Germany as a nation. My use of German- and > Germanic was intended to cover > > everyone from King Arthur to the Vikings, I hope > Gauls (not sure are they > > Germanic?), as well as the Barvarians...Am I wrong > with this? The > > qualities > > of these peoples and their attraction to these > metals for weapons, > > Excalibur > > itself I mentioned, the sword legend would have > pulled from a > > stone...etc... > > Perhaps the Romans with the push for > de-paganization most effectively > > stiffled throughout the empire idolization of > metals and weapons and that > > is > > the simple reason - I don't know. > > > > But, since you mention the enlightenment to > Chladni's time for things > > meteoritic, I'd say be careful not to be a fish in > a fishbowl who doesn't > > appreciate the water that surrounds him as we > thirsty and envious cats are > > looking in with our saucery eyes for a bite to > eat. Take explorers as > > recent as Alexander von Humboldt, who I think > recovered meteoritical iron > > from Chupaderos MX most probably a few short > months _before_ the French > > fall > > in L'Aigle reached him. Then, he went to visit > his good friend Thomas > > Jefferson in Washington for several weeks they > managed to socialize many, > > many stimulating hours their mutual satisfaction, > and I fully suspect that > > Jefferson would have been given the opportunity to > see this, after their > > extensive scientific and social discussions. > Interestingly, L'Aigle must > > have been old news to Baron von Humboldt once he > traveled from Mexico to > > Washington DC, and Humboldt was certainly up on > the geological sciences > > from > > France (as a matter of fact he and Jefferson even > corresponded in French > > on > > ocassion). This puts a different perspective > entirely on Jefferson's > > famous > > satirical Yankee comments, especially knowing the > master politician and > > skilled manipulator of the press in the new > anarchy he delighted in. The > > Secretary of State had to offer the Baron a visa > and permit to carry many > > scientific samplings from Latin America, Any more > info you might have > > here? > > Would this have been discussed? Was the iron > meteorite actually collected > > in 1803 by Humboldt, part of the bill of lading, > or did it somehow get > > into > > his possession at a later date?? These are burning > questions. Humboldt > > helped Jefferson enough to plan together the > expedition for the Lousiana > > Purchase, and how to collect, I wonder if they > corresponded in 1807 about > > the Weston fall? > > > > I even live near a nice street named after > Humboldt in Mexico. Less than > > five short years in Latin America...the records of > his 12 months of > > travels > > throughout Mexico are no doubt archived with great > precision somewhere in > > Berlin and in scattered reprints in Mexico. Which > street in Munich is > > named > > after a Mexican explorer :-) ? > > > > Best wishes, Doug > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Martin Altmann" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "'MexicoDoug'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; > > <[email protected]> > > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 7:33 AM > > Subject: AW: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels > -gifts II > > > > > > Oops Doug, > > > > Thou shalt not over-interpret. > > I can't find any increased interest in nor any > cultural reception of > > meteorites in German history, transcending those > in other countries. > > Meteorites were vulgar superstition, in best case > they were kept in > > cabinets > > as curiosities (and later after Enlightment thrown > to trash). > > In the Grimm collection of folk tales, the Elbogen > chunk isn't mentioned > > as > > felt from sky and it's only one story of a > metamorphosis of many others > > (in > > this case an addendum of the tale, where some > dwarves were turned into > > stones). > > Nor aren't there many stones left from pre-1800, > nor was meteoritics a > > monopole of german scientists. There were many > more from French, Poland, > > Russia... > > And if you want to ride the nationalistic horse, > "Chladni" is a Slovak (or > > was it Slovene name), hehe. > > Science always was international, always. Remember > the times of the > > islamic > > occupation in Spain, where for centuries people > bashed their heads in, but > > on the other hand, the Islamic scientists were > authorities in the > > christian > > literature like the old Greeks and the Church > Fathers. > > > > Perhaps a difference is, that Chladni collected > reports from old falls, > > naturally a lot from German sources too, but I'm > sure, that if one would > > study the chronicles in other languages and > countries, there are also a > > lot > > to be found. (recently someone sent me a cool > fireball report from a local > > Church's chronicle from 17th century). > > > > And if you refer to the Ensisheim stone, remember > the pamphlets following > > the fall, where that fall was taken for an evil > omen. > > Thus following the hysterical tradition, that all > uncommon phenomena in > > nature would be bad signs of God's wrath - and in > this respect, Europe is > > quite unique, because, as far as I know, in all > other cultures, where > > meteorites are mentioned (or found), meteorites > never had bad > > connotations. > > > > " and that Generally that Germans attributed > mystical > > powers to meteorites like no other culture since > the ancients". > > > > See above and certainly not: Indonesia, Mongolia, > Japan, the Inuit, the > > American Indians, for the Aztecs, Inka ect, you > have to look, Arabia and > > so > > on I guess quite everywhere meteorites were > venerated or at least used for > > tools or jewellery. Would be a nice new thread! > > > > Has anyone pictures of the bracelets of meteoritic > iron from 7th-5th > > century > > b.C. in the museum of Czestochowa Rakow in Poland, > Marcin? > > > > Eh and Doug, there wasn't any German national > "identity" until 19th > > century. > > And go a little bit back, Charlemagne, were where > there the French, where > > the Germans? It was always multi-ethnical. The > racism, if I let the > > history > > of colonisation aside and the exaggerated > nationalism was rather an > > invention of the 19th century. And thus I guess > Sterling and me didn't > > want > > to depress you, as there is hope, for at least > some parts on the globe. > > Meanwhile we are living in a much more > communicative, mobile (and > > hedonistic?) world, in Europe people remember the > high price they had to > > pay > > for nationalistic insanity, a little bit bad is, > that the principle of > > Cold > > War had worked well... > > At least Doug, the preconditions are somewhat > better, than they were ever > > before. > > > > Let's have new thread. Pre A.D. 1800 meteoritics! > > Dirk tell us about Asia! > > Norbert, Australia? > > Marie-Pelé France? > > Serguej, Russia? > > Andrzej Poland. > > Rob, da Commonwealth? > > Christian K&K meteorites. > > Manjoi - India! > > Joern Germany. > > Africa? > > Doug - Middle America > > And so on! > > > > Buckleboo! > > Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- > > Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Im Auftrag von > > MexicoDoug > > Gesendet: Montag, 27. November 2006 11:54 > > An: Sterling K. Webb > > Cc: [email protected] > > Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels > -gifts II > > > > Hi Sterling, > > > > 1-The fact that the French army wanted to enrage > the Bohemians by tossing > > the Elbogen iron meteorite in the well is > indisputable. This meteorite is > > Grade A Prime cultural heritage for Bohemia where > many ethnic Germans > > lived > > and was ethnically a contested territory in my > understanding. The French > > actions were part of the hostilities kicked off by > the War of Jenkins' Ear > > which morphed into that of Austrian Succession > there. The exciting point > > being that Germans/Bohemians had a cultural > appreciation of meteorites > > which > > > > truly raptures my imagination with pride, cultural > curiousity and a > > transfer > > > > of a certain degree of magic in my mind's eye, due > to my own fascination > > with steel from space. > > > > 2- My mention of the then Governer of Georgia, > Gen. Oglethorpe's bellicose > > expedition of Georgians and Carolinians was to > bring to your attention > > this > > large American campaign in the War of Jenkins' > Ear, intended to correct > > your > > > > statement that Americans never had the odd > pleasure of partaking in that > > euphonious war (Soundly put!). > > > > Nothing much I can do about wars despite my > heart's desires, other than > > hope > > > > I would not be called to participate in them. I > really have absolutely no > > opinions or desire to think about human > intraspecies' inhumanity. > > > > I'll tender a request for a favor that my kindly > hijacked thread be > > returned > > > > to romantic, fantasy and other fictional books on > meteorites. I have to > > admit to believing that anything goes in a > discussion group, but was > > unhappy > > > > that a thread on romantic and adventure novels > with meteorites in their > > plots turned into a discussion of how Europe had > more and longer wars than > > the USA. :-( !!!!! > > > > . ... to imagine the relationship between > Caledfwlch, Gram, Hrunting, > > Naegling, the Magical Giant Sword that slew > Grendel's mother, so difficult > > to hoist or lift up is a recurring theme, and > meteorites, which held a > > special fascination in Germanic cultures and > craftmanships is very > > amazing, > > though. The stone Ensisheim, which fell in German > territory at the time > > was > > > > recognized by the German Emperor in 1492 to have > come from the sky, and > > ordered conserved thanks to him. It is > interesting that the "civilized > > world" didn't really "accept" that rock fell from > space until L'Aigle > > pummeled the last holdouts in France more than 300 > years later, like a > > thunder fromThor's hammer. With the greatest > respect to France, who seem > > to > > > > have been ahead of the Americans (one can easily > imagine that the > > Americans > > followed the French lead), I believe the > Franco-Germanic relationship > > strongly colored the French acceptance of > meteoritical phenomena and gets > > to > > > > the heart of meteorite status in the milieu. > I.e., I bet in the 1740's > > part > > > > of the reason the Elbogen meteorite got such harsh > treatment was due to > > the > > memory of Ensisheim having been declared a > favorable German icon to unite > > in > > > > the war against France, and that Generally that > Germans attributed > > mystical > > powers to meteorites like no other culture since > the ancients. I think > > the > > French were strongly influenced by the widespread > meteorite reverance > > thoughout Germanic cultures (take Grimms' tales > and Martin's stories of > > the > > converted burgrave on Elbogen, and German > fascination with hammers, axes > > and > > > > metal in general and a its possible relationship > to meteoritic iron), > > which > > provided resistance to recognizing that meteorites > really did come from > > heaven as their competing Germanic neighbors > believed... > > > > Best wishes, > > Doug > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Sterling K. Webb" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: "Meteorite List" > <[email protected]> > > Cc: "MexicoDoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Martin > Altmann" > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:04 PM > > Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels > -gifts II > > > > > >> Hi, Doug, Martin, List, > >> > >> Operating on the principle that the longer I > talk, > >> the more likely my chance to really annoy someone > >> becomes, I snipped a lot of sentences out of what > >> I originally wrote. > >> > >> The history of the USA up until 1900-1910 is > best > >> described as a kind of "ongoing conflict," > somewhat > >> short of formal war. I was going to say that, so > no > >> disagreement there. In fact, the history of most > nations > >> can be so described with some accuracy. > >> > >> Even with Martin's addition of a few hundred > more > >> wars for Europe, there's a background of conflict > that > >> generates them. The Serbian obsession with > Kosovo, > >> its ancient "homeland," dates from a conquest > late in > >> the first millennium AD of the people who still > live there, > >> the Illyrians, or rather their descendents, who > were there > >> before the first millennium BC, which makes the > Serbian > >> "historical" claim look a little silly. > >> > >> But these ethnic histories solve nothing; one > has only > >> to look at the Middle East to have that > demonstrated. > >> Such arguments over who is exclusively entitled > to the > >> "land" are endless, unending, and productive of > nothing > >> but carnage, even between folks as completely and > >> totally indistinguishable as two Irishmen. > >> > >> United Statesians (so as to avoid the > over-broad usage > >> of "Americans") mostly have what is so often > called a > >> "naive" view: "Why doesn't everybody just forget > about > >> settling the score for the past and try to work > on solving > >> the problems that exist NOW?" > >> > >> The scorn of the sophisticated not > withstanding, there > >> is a another name for this: SANITY. If the price > of this > >> mental health is to be achieved by, say, modern > Europeans, > >> acting as if THEY never had a war, being morally > superior > >> to those so backward as to get stuck in > conflicts, well, > >> sanity is worth that. That IS the idea -- to dump > the past. > >> "History," said James Joyce a century ago, "is a > nightmare > >> I'm trying to wake up from." > >> > >>> does Europe have a "Battle of Little Bighorn", > which... > >>> was the fight leading to the demise of a race of > people? > >> > >> Duh. Yeah! And the Sioux (and all the other > tribes > >> that participated in an INDIAN victory there) > still exist, > >> no thanks to General Custer, just as Jews still > exist, no > >> thanks to... We weren't going to drag up the > past, > >> were we? > >> > >>> if the Indians had caught on quicker... > >> > >> American natives caught on right away. They > each > >> and all sat in council about what to do about the > odd > >> newcomers from the very year they first showed > up! > >> Every strategy you can imagine was tried. It's > common- > >> place to present these centuries of native > statecraft as > >> if they all sat there like idiots until the late > 1800's, but > >> that notion is what is really demeaning. A delay > of a > >> potential annihilation for centuries is a major > achievement; > >> there are innumerable spots around the globe > where > >> indigenous peoples have been destroyed in a > decade > >> or three. As for uniting scores, even hundreds, > of > >> nations with no common language, belief, or > culture, > >> ask Tecumseh about how that worked out... > >> > >> The real "war" was epidemiological. The "Black > >> Death" made its way into North America ahead of > the > >> Europeans, in the 15th century, and was followed > >> shortly by a flood of new European diseases in > the > >> next century. Europeans, in person, were entering > >> devastated and de-populated lands everywhere in > >> the "New World," north and south. Not that they > >> weren't trying to kill the locals, just that > their efforts > >> were puny compared to what the microbes (whose > >> existence both sides were unaware of) > accomplished. > >> It's hard to slow down an invasion when your own > >> population is reduced by up to 90%! > >> > >> I'm sorry you were so upset by General > Oglethorpe > >> and the Battle of Bloody Marsh, Doug, but I will > remind > >> you that it took place after Jerkins carted his > ear-in-a-jar > >> up to the British Parliment and got Walpole to > declare > >> the Ear War. Had the fortunes of war fallen > differently, > >> why, you would be walking the picturesque calles > de > >> Neuvo Atlanta, capitol of Las Floridas del Norte, > while > >> avoiding the camera-toting USian tourists in > their garish > >> shirts and plastic flip-flops... > >> > >> I would love to "kick around" the causes of > the > >> five-day "Football War" with you, Doug, but I > think > >> that it breaks the tenuous chain that links > Jenkins' ear > >> to a wet meteorite in a moat surrounded by > mocking > >> Frenchmen! > >> > >> > >> Sterling K. Webb > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> And Bill just summed it up in three sentences > better > >> than either of us, I think... > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "MexicoDoug" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: "Sterling K. Webb" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Cc: <[email protected]> > >> Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 8:56 PM > >> Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Meteorite novels > -gifts II > >> > >> > >>> Sterling wrote: > >>> "1739-1740 War of Jenkins' Ear" > >>> "And [the USA's] certainly never managed to have > a war as magnificently > >>> named as "The War of Jenkins' Ear"! Now, that's > how to name a war! > >>> Clear, > > > >>> concise, and everybody knows exactly what it's > all about." > >>> > >>> Hey Sterling, > >>> > >>> Hah! remember studies in Western Civ - between > Physics and philosophy > >>> class :-) -, really, the USA has darn well so > managed to have a war > >>> equally magnificient in name as the "War of > Jenkin's Ear". > >>> > >>> It was called "The War of Jenkin's Ear"; Same > Jenkins - and it wasn't > >>> Jenkin's other ear. Don't forget that Jenkin's > ear was supposedly > >>> severed in the Americas, and he was as English > as George Washington at > >>> the time. So I'd Argue that not only did the > Americans participate in > >>> that war - they also started it. Not to mention > the USA started the > >>> funiest named war of all: The "Quasi-War" as > thanks to the French right > >>> after the French supported the American > Independence effort. > >>> > >>> That particular Jenkin's Ear war in the 1740's > is actually the same war > >>> that was contracted by the European continent > and spread to Bohemia and > >>> resulted in the French tossing the Elbogen Iron > meteorite down the to > >>> the > > > >>> bottom of the Bohemian well where it rusted for > 40 years. It was a > >>> small > > > >>> world back then, too. In the USA, in the great > American State of > >>> Georgia, the military general who founded > Georgia wasted no time to > >>> marshal his proud Savannah compatriots and > adventurous Charlestonians > >>> out > > > >>> of South Carolina to pillage everything from > Jacksonville, Florida to > >>> St. > > > >>> Augustine, and that was only openers. > >>> > >>> Oh the United States has had oogles more > practically nameless wars than > >>> you give it credit for in those years. They > don't Google easily out of > >>> a > > > >>> database like your nice European ones, but they > were bloodier if Indians > >>> are men considered equal in the eyes of the > Creator. You've got to > >>> consider that in Europe all those wars were > spread among 20-30 > >>> countries. > > > >>> How many Indian real nations do you think the > singular USA trounced in a > >>> religious ferver to achieve its destiny? The > USA is a nation that was > >>> perpetually at war on its own and its extended > frontiers. There are > >>> more > > > >>> Indian wars alone, than Indian nations that > yielded in defeat against > >>> the > > > >>> cleansing of the continent from Atlantic to > Pacific. Take Florida, > >>> which > > > >>> heaped war upon wars, genocide and forced > relocation. Or maybe > >>> Missouri - if the Indians had caught on quicker, > you might be living in > >>> a > > > >>> teepee today, or at least your neighbor :-) > >>> > >>> As for the lack of colorful names of wars in the > USA even without > >>> considering who started the War of Jenkin's Ear, > does Europe have a > >>> "Battle of Little Bighorn", which is a battle > the war easily can assume > >>> for the name, and really was the fight leading > to the demise of a race > >>> of > > > >>> people? If that isn't enough, how about the > Gipper's "Star Wars", who > >>> has > > > >>> one of those programs besides George Lucas? And > I am convinced that the > >>> US participated as a silent partner in the > infamous "Football War," as > >>> well... > >>> > >>> Best wishes, Doug > >>> (no slights to any nation, no offense; we are > who we are and I can live > >>> with that just fine, until someone else tosses a > spectacular iron in a > >>> well to fester. Guess the Evian was too > depleted in minerals for their > >>> taste) > >>> > >>> > >>> thread truncated... > >> > >> > >> > > > > ______________________________________________ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > ______________________________________________ > > Meteorite-list mailing list > > [email protected] > > > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________ > Meteorite-list mailing list > [email protected] > http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com ______________________________________________ Meteorite-list mailing list [email protected] http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
