Hi Jason and all,
Good post Jason and I agree with a great deal of what you said. I should
have been a bit more specific when I commented and will here. I am sure
there is some fault that people will be able to find and I'll read with
interest further comments. Surely details of an interesting fall gets the
attention of collectors who want part of the fall.
To get to the point, when you have more people hunt a fall, often you get
the hunters raising the offers they will pay for the specimens to land
owners. Some of this is out of desperation to bring a new fall to the market
(what ever happened to getting things classified first) and not getting
skunked on your trip. More hunters more competition to buy what is out there
or found. A bidding war can ensue and drive the price up dramatically. This
happened in Park Forest and I know first hand from the dozen trips I made
there.
Fewer hunters and the better chance that everyone there will be able to buy
pretty much what they want and at a better price. If we have 50 hunters and
they only average about 400 grams each, and drive the price they will pay
for the material higher then they have to ask more for their limited average
amount.
Fewer dealers, say 10 hunters for example and a better chance to lower price
for material paid, plus more material for each hunter (say four or five
times more, then the hunter will be able to charge less to make a good
profit and be rewarded for the trouble he or she is going to.
I know that hunters will always pursue a fall and we can't regulate who
hunts, it's open to anyone but my feeling is that having too many hunters
drive costs up in several ways and not just the basic costs of getting there
and staying for a while. The saying too many cooks spoil the broth may
pertain here. Too many hunters spoil the fall.
Perhaps in the future an honor system might be used for falls close to
hunters in order to better serve the collecting community. Did I say
honor.................nah will never work :-)
--AL Mitterling
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Utas" <[email protected]>
To: "Meteorite-list" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list]Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary
chondrite?
Yo,
Well, I don't fully agree that Al's suggestion is the reason why West
was so expensive, but it may well have been a factor.
Greg, you said:
Look at it this way (its how I do anyway)
Compare Carancas... It sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel from
the USA to Peru.
West... it also sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel to Texas
from the USA (many only one or two states away)
What costs more? The travel to Texas or Peru?
Well, it costs more when thirty people travel to Texas, stay there for
several weeks, (and pay a base price for much of their material) than
when five go to Peru, stay for a few days, and buy their rocks for
pennies on the dollar. That was his point - which is similar to, but
different from what I said earlier - "So the finders were looking to
make the most of their sales with very
limited material: hence, even higher prices."
Al goes farther, suggesting that the price of the fall actually has/d
a direct correlation with the overall expenses of the hunters. To
which I say...no. I mean, maybe to some small extent, but, generally
speaking, this principle doesn't apply to meteorites *at all.* Look
at the $2-4/g price tag on Thuathe, $20/g price tag on Buzzard Coulee,
or the $10/g price tag on Ben Sour.
Maybe the prices are lower because the dealers brought back a large
amount and are trying to move all of their material, but if I were
looking to sell any of my Ash Creek stones, I wouldn't pul out a
calculator and plug away at our expenses before giving out a price.
I'd look at the material from a tkw, aesthetic, and rarity standpoint,
and then judge. And this is where Ash Creek becomes more of an
enigma.
It seems to me that whenever there's a fall in a nearby place and a
larger number of listmembers and personal friends make the trip,
prices just...go up. It's not a factor of the cost of the trip - it's
a hype factor that surrounds the fall itself. It's there, it's now,
they're there, they're finding them *right now.* The market doesn't
usually have such a sense of immediacy...
Regards,
Jason
On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Greg Catterton
<[email protected]> wrote:
Hi to all, I thought I would add my 2 pennies...
I would have to disagree, I think the more hunters, the cheaper the
material due to more people having material for sale and less chance for
a select few "friends" to set what they all will charge.
Look at it this way (its how I do anyway)
Compare Carancas... It sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel from
the USA to Peru.
West... it also sold for $100 per gram and they had to travel to Texas
from the USA (many only one or two states away)
What costs more? The travel to Texas or Peru?
Carancas had a much lower TKW then West (west TKW is more then double),
made a crater and had a ton on media not to mention was of much more
scientific importance then west due to the circumstances of the fall,
crater and events that surrounded it.
Thanks to Mike Farmer, the media attention around Carancas doubled. (not
really a bad thing, but more a fact - his "escape" made for great reading
and a neat story.)
Its my opinion, however unpopular, that new falls are about getting as
much profit as possible as fast as possible... I also think inaccurate
reports of TW lead to the higher price of West - I still see people
clearly stating that only about 3 kilos were recovered when I know of
many who walked away with several kilos themselves!
Another example of West and meteorite politics (which leads to these high
prices)... The same people who were ready to exclude and not "allow"
people to the AZ fall location (and used the excuse "we dont want others
running in our backyard like they did in west") were actually the same
ones doing just that to others backyards at West.
I really think that the price is more about who gets there first and who
is "allowed" to hunt the field.
Meteorites are competitive and my eyes were opened to just how much so
due to recent falls.
When I first got into meteorites, I thought it was a pretty open group
that welcomed newer members/collectors and future hunters. I quickly
found out that not many are willing to "help the competition" and its
basicly dog eat dog.
Sure, many are willing to help you build your collection by selling you
meteorites, but very few are actually willing to lend/offer first hand
teaching and "in field" experience to those that want to learn from the
people that are supposed to be "the best".
I know my thoughts on this topic are not too popular with some, but I am
honestly speaking from what I have seen looking in from the sidelines.
Greg C.
--- On Tue, 11/3/09, al mitt <[email protected]> wrote:
From: al mitt <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive ordinary
chondrite?
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, November 3, 2009, 9:22 PM
Hi Greg and all,
While I think there are a lot of good points on why this
meteorite was expensive, I think there is another factor in
all this as well.
The more people, meteorite hunters, collectors and so on
that descend on a fall, the more expenses that have to be
added into the cost. If you only have 50lbs (22.7 kilos) of
material (for example) and fifty hunters, the cost for
travel, motel, time and effort and payment to land owners
will make that fall higher in price. If only a half dozen
hunters search the area then the price would be
substantially less. This assumes that they all find an
average amount of material.
I realize there is no way of knowing for certain how much
material survived passage or can be found but seems if every
meteorite hunter in a two thousand mile radius heads out and
there are more hunters than material we're in for an
expensive fall.
I've heard some comments about fewer searchers then better
chance of hunters price fixing but I don't think this would
happen in most cases. I believe in the credibility of most
hunters and collectors. As I have said many times before,
ultimately it is what someone is willing to pay for an item
that will dictate the price of material. Usually about a
year after the fall is the best priced material. Well my two
grams worth.
All my best!
--AL Mitterling
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Stanley"
<[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Ash Creek the most expensive
ordinary chondrite?
> All:
>
> I think the reason Ash Creek has a higher value is
because of the publicity. It was major news among the
meteorite community; even outside the meteorite community.
Also, it was the first fall/find that occurred in the US for
a number of years, and was captued on video. This all
created the increased interest and demand, and thus
increased the price. The Buzzard Coulee meteorite was also
much larger (TKW) and did not receive the same marketing as
Ash Creek.
>
> One thing that I do find odd is that there are NWA's
and even OC's that demand high dollars compared to others
that are the same classification. It just boils down to
supply/demand and some good marketing and publicity. I may
pay hundreds of dollars for a meteorite and be satisfied,
while someone else may think it has little value. That's one
of the things that makes it such an interesting hobby.
>
> Greg S.
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Meteorite-list mailing list
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