Hi Jason, Thanks for the response...
You stated:
"...orbits have little to do with any given geographical
point on the earth, and they do essentially hit the earth at random,
just as raindrops do..."
I would like to point out this is true, but only to a point of variable
when considering speed, elliptical path, and perturbations of the bodies
by other larger bodies. Any one variable has nothing to do with the
Earth except if it gets close to Earth (or another body), then it's
orbit can be affected...
Even so, asteroids are predictable. Very predictable in fact. Orbits can
be calculated, and impacts predicted. Though this has only happened
once, we're at the beginning of an understanding of asteroid science as
such has never been seen before in the history of human kind. If one can
predict the impact of one asteroid, one can predict the orbit of another
or even an entire meteoroid stream.
Here's a hypothetical... An asteroid smashes into another, a group of
thousands of pieces of debris go flying off into space towards the inner
solar system. Over hundreds of thousands of years (maybe shorter) these
bits of debris get swallowed up b the Sun, planets, and other larger
asteroids floating around in eccentric orbits. Now these orbits are not
related whatsoever to Earth's orbit other than they orbit the Sun. Now
let say for sake of argument ALL pieces but 2 get pulled into other
planets or get burned up by the Sun. This leaves two pieces. Now these
two pieces could be hundreds or thousands or tens of thousands of miles
apart or more. One could be traveling slightly faster than the other but
in the exact same elliptical orbit around the Sun. One piece could
impact Earth while the other, being further behind misses, and doesn't
cross the same space at the same time as Earth for another 11 years.
That's really a short period in universe-time isn't it? Then again, this
scenario could be reversed. The first piece could miss, the second piece
could hit 11 years later. The orbit would not be disturbed that much
would it?
I'm not so much arguing that the 2 Wethersfield stones are without a
doubt the same meteorite. I'm simply saying it seems like an awfully big
coincidence to me that they hit the same location. I see the logic
behind the rain analogy, but that was rather a close minded and an
insulting answer in my opinion. Perhaps again, I took it wrong. If so I
apologize to Martin publicly for taking it that way.
I ask these questions in an open minded way, fully expecting to be
pointed at and/or told I'm wrong, however I think it's all about
building on the knowledge we have, and not closing our minds to
possibilities because someone says it's unlikely.
That's all...
Regards,
Eric
On 3/7/2010 7:31 PM, Jason Utas wrote:
Eric, Martin, All,
I thought the analogy was a good one; in both cases you have things
that fall literally at random from the sky hitting the ground at the
same spot. Yes, raindrops don't orbit the sun, but the fact remains
that asteroids' orbits have little to do with any given geographical
point on the earth, and they do essentially hit the earth at random,
just as raindrops do.
It's just that we get a lot more rain here than we get meteorites.
Eric also said:
I would venture a guess that if someone found two meteorites of the
same class 1.4 miles away from one another as cold finds they would
assume the area would be a strewnfield until proven otherwise. This
without of course taking into account any dating of the stones.
Well, maybe. But many L6's are distinct morphologically. Yes, if two
*identical* meteorites that were not part of the same
meteoroid/asteroid when entering the atmosphere fell close together at
roughly the same time, we wouldn't be able to tell them apart. But if
you limit the distinction to two meteorites of the same type being
found within a mile or so of each other and provide no other
qualifications (such as overall appearance, chemical composition,
shock grade, etc.), then, odds are, they won't be similar enough to
warrant pairing them.
Compare:
http://www.meteoritemarket.com/GOR58-8A.jpg
http://www.meteoritemarket.com/ST66-31A.jpg
http://www.sv-meteorites.com/meteorite.aspx?id=382
http://www.meteorites.com.au/collection/Kendleton%20L4%204.2g%20(1%20of%202).jpg
Goronyo, Saratov, Souslovo, Kendleton. All pretty fresh L4's [I chose
a class at random].
Here's a great example of just how different many 'types' can be. I
find it amusing to scroll through them to see just how different
practically every meteorite looks relative to those near it...
http://www.meteorites.com.au/collection/chondrites.html
And then there will always be the heterogeneous meteorites like
Almahatta-Sita, Portales Valley, or Park Forest, to name a few. Part
of the same fall, but take a look at two pieces and research would
suggest that they're distinct falls.
Regards,
Jason
On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 6:03 PM, Meteorites USA<[email protected]> wrote:
I was going to stay closed mouth since I opened it a few hours ago and got
my theory handed back to me very matter-of-factly. However, a rain drop is
hardly a meteorite and does not orbit the Sun, unless of course it somehow
miraculously escapes the Earth's gravitational field. But then it would
freeze in deep space and would no longer be considered rain now would it? I
believe frozen water is called ice if I'm correct. but then again wouldn't
it melt once it got closer to the sun? I could be wrong here so please point
out if I am... I'm sure you will.
All the BS aside, I would venture a guess that if someone found two
meteorites of the same class 1.4 miles away from one another as cold finds
they would assume the area would be a strewnfield until proven otherwise.
This without of course taking into account any dating of the stones.
Didn't I read a while back about asteroid-quakes? As asteroids near the
Earth newer material is brought to the surface. In other words, would an
asteroid's surface act as a shield against the cosmic rays to the interior
of the asteroid? Would this affect anything at all? Is ALL material in any
given asteroid the same age, or is this age determined by the cosmic
radiation levels within any given part? Does this take into account other
older and younger bodies impacting a parent body and becoming part of that
body? Is accretion real or a figment of scientific world's imagination? Am I
asking too many questions? ;)
I'm being facetious of course. Now, I'm assuming a lot of things here, and
call me an ass if you like, but at least I didn't sound like an ass by
slamming someone else on-list and insulting them by explaining what rain is.
As far as I know a meteorite is made of stone or iron, or a mixture of both
and it comes from an asteroid, and these asteroids come from space and all
have orbits unless those orbits are perturbed by a larger body, like which I
have been apparently.
Regards,
Eric
On 3/7/2010 5:24 PM, Martin Altmann wrote:
Yah,
and the Earth is rotating. Eric, calculate how far seen from a fix point
from space that little town is moving on his latitude circle in a few
seconds only...
Shht Eric, you have a spot in your garden, of only 1/3 inch diameter.
An incredible spot.
Because there it happened, that two projectiles of a diameter of only a
few
mm, falling from an altitude of thousands of feet, hit each other in
exactly
the same spot on the ground!
And that happens several times a year!
Check it out. It's called "rain" and whenever it rains, you will see that
the spot is wet...
Best!
Martin
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von Rob
Matson
Gesendet: Montag, 8. März 2010 01:48
An: Meteorites USA
Cc: Meteorite List
Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] Related Meteorite Falls 11 years apart?
BothHammers! Both L6 Olivine-hypersthene
Hi Eric,
Statistically it seems very possible they are related and from
the same parent body. In fact the probability of them NOT being
related seems remote as it doesn't make sense not to consider
the likelihood of a pairing relationship.
The only factor about the two Wethersfield falls that suggests a
pairing is the L6 classification they share. However, since L6 is
one of the most common meteorite classifications, it's hardly
compelling evidence for a common immediate precursor body (IPB).
Has anyone looked at Google Earth and zoomed out to see how small
a spot that actually is? That's like shooting a speeding bullet
out of the air with another. The Earth is rotating ~365 times per
year, x 11 years that's 4015 rotations of the earth and 11 complete
orbits around the Sun. Two small rocks of the same exact type
floated around the solar system for millions/billions of years,
and crash land within 1.4 miles of each other only 11 years
apart and they are not related?
Let me counter your theory with one question: Why should a
meteorite stream have orbital characteristics that are synchronous
with earth's day, or more specifically earth's geography?
Think about it: there is no dynamical mechanism to produce such
synchronicity. It is far more likely that truly paired meteorites
falling in different years would do so in completely different
parts of the world. Given the miniscule fraction of falls that are
successfully recovered each year, the odds are very long that two
falls -- in different years -- will ever be recovered that provably
came from the same IPB.
--Rob
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