Hello Shawn,
I think one aspect in your thoughts isn't fully correct. Understandable,
because you're occupied with historical meteorites.
Historical meteorites are by far the most expensive meteorites you can have.
Why are they so expensive? Because of the poor availability.
Why is so few available - rrrrrright, because the very most of their tkws is
locked away in institutional collections.
Hence they are not the problem, the researchers and scientists do already have
them.
Shawn, this material stems from the times, where there existed not more than
2000-3000 meteorites on the whole World.
Times have changed. We have now a couple of tens of thousands meteorites more,
within only 3 decades. The Antarctic ones and the desert finds.
Meteorite science, the advance in knowledge, the new results - that all is done
by means of these new finds.
It's all about them.
And they don't cost a thing anymore. That black market, profit thing - it is a
true sham debate, a discussion nobody in expert circles is having, but which is
carried in only from laymen from outside.
You have to see the dimensions. Let me help you. Let's take the Bulletin
Database.
I give you now a summary by types of all that what was found - in 35 years - by
ANSMET, NIPR, PRIC, KOREAMET, EUROMET together.
And the same only for that what - in 11 years - was coming from NWA.
Only NWA, the couple of thousands of entries for the other Sahara finds (the
DaGs, HaHs, SAHs, Acfers, Tanezroufts) I leave out, as well as the complete
Oman (Dhofar, JaH, Shisr...). Only NWA:
Antarctica NWA
Acap/Lod 2.73 kg 25.18 kg
Angrites 0.02 kg 7.24 kg
Brachinites 0.25 kg 8.16 kg
Aubrites 5.37 kg 11.14 kg (still biased by some El
Haggouina pairings)
Carbonaceous
CB 0.13 kg 0.90 kg
CH 0.21 kg 0.42 kg
CI 0.80 kg -
CK 4.50 kg 32.86 kg
CM 18.94 kg 5.98 kg
CO 36.10 kg 20.29 kg
CR 3.61 kg 10.85 kg
CV 15.64 kg 81.30 kg
Diogenites - 83.12 kg
Eucrites 47.97 kg 116.56 kg
Howardites 11.88 kg 32.63 kg
K-Chondrites 0.02 kg -
Lunar 5.43 kg 22.28 kg
Martian 27.80 kg 8.15 kg
Mesosiderites 34.06 kg 259.50 kg
Pallasites 202.47 kg 6.25 kg
R-Chondrites 1.38 kg 30.57 kg
Ureilites 16.31 kg 49.40 kg
Winonaites 0.08 kg 1.38 kg
For the irons, I'm too lazy, there we have more from Antarctica than from NWA,
And the ordinary chondrites.. well they are not so interesting and there are
from Antarctica only 500 numbers with a larger tkw than 2.5kg.
Hence a few single tons from whole Antarctica
And anyway, to bring 1000 gallons of gasoline to the Pole costs as much to get
a ton of ordinary chondrites from NWA delivered to the doorstep of the
institute.
So you see, of what small quantities we're talking at all. Seen the weights and
the volume of money.
Look the overall expenses for one single Antarctic meteorite season would
easily have bought all that above listed desert completely.
And if one would be so kind to spend another years expenses, with that money
one could install in each and every Sahara country an university meteorite
department equipped with a microprobe and pay there two meteoricists for the
next 50 years.
Money, profit motifs, that is a bugaboo of not so knowledgable people.
Compared to quite any other university research or museums collecting
activities, we're speaking with meteorites about peanuts.
Neither any "black market" does exists, simply due to the lack of mass.
Those articles always suggest, that the private collectors would buy up all new
finds before the scientists could do that.
Please Shawn - after Calcalong was forgotten, which two meteorites angered the
scientists most? The two DaG-Moons.
Now see Shawn - still today - after so long times and these two rocks were
everything else than of the size of a mountain,
you can still buy them without problems, and at a rate 200, 300 times lower
than 15 years ago.
Look, Shawn, what was the most devastating article before that one now? It
was, when Dr.Smith, the highest meteorite boss of the Commonwealth cried in
BBC, that science wouldn't be able to compete with private collecting. Nja
well, I would cry too if I would have bought the Ivuna main mass, because it
was simply the most expensive meteorite specimen of the World of these years
around. But I'd rather would have said: Girl, what are you crying, you could
have bought so much fine desert instead.
Back to that NYT article - what is the name of that "journalist". Mr.Broad
simply only would have had to go to the Natural History Museum in New York and
if he have had a little talk with the meteorite curator there, Denton Ebel, he
would have learned not only, that meteorite dealing and trade is as old as
meteoritics, but also, that the main load of meteorites in the NY collection
and the great stones and irons, the collection was founded with,
were simply purchased from a big meteorite dealer: Henry Augustus Ward. Half
of his private collection - the other half plus before some more was purchased
from the Field museum, which was founded hence also solely with purchased
material. That Fields, where the curators seem to have a problem to purchase
desert meteorites, because they think, meteorite dealing would be a new
phenomenon and that in former times their meteorites had fallen from the sky
directly into their stock. And Ebel would have him perhaps too, that for their
crown jewel, the fat Cape York, they had paid a million USD to the owner.
These articles, that yelling, it comes always from single persons, mostly
standing outside of meteorites. These are single opinions.
In fact the overwhelming majority of scientists, private collectors, hunters
and dealers - they are all very content, how things are going with meteorites,
because such paradisiac times never existed before.
Look Shawn, now that Dr. DiMartino. He is no meteoricists. He hasn't directly
clues about that field, he is an astronomer.
And he is silly. If you look in the Bulletins, there you find, that he once
purchased an eucrite in Algeria (and the Algerians made a much larger drama
than the Egyptians) and there isn't listed his institute as holder of the
stone, but he as private person.
Now back.
Look market, black market. These articles and those who are fanning the flames,
they always try to raise the impression,
that millions of people after quitting time would go out and would dig up
millions of meteorites, selling them for billions of dollars.
They want to create a problem, where no problem is at all.
(Why they are doing that? I can imagine).
And that is the dangerous thing. Laws are made by politicians and
administration. They read that bullshit in NYC, New Scientist, BBC..
and think - uuuuh - there seems to be an urgent problem, we have to do
something!
Of course - all people occupied with meteorites know, that this is a titanic
humbug - but they can't know it.
Profit. Shawn, I never met a person, who became wealthy during the last 10
years in dealing with meteorites.
The times are long over and gone. Look today, we all, from the ominous goatherd
up to the collectors who are financing that all,
we made it possible that any provincial university or even college today can
make serial examinations on such rare classes like mentioned above and that on
more different samples, as they would get from the Antarctic leaning sytem,
cause there weren't found so many.
Of course Shawn, here and there might be curators moaning about having no
budgets, but that's their job, to get things straight.
Because most institutes have their budget in best order.
And I always recommend, just browse a little bit around and check the budgets
not only of meteorite institutes, but for other research projects and check the
purchase budgets of other, also small museums, galleries and collections.
And check the prices of the specimens on the major arts fairs.
You will find out, that the annual World meteoritic turnover doesn't exceed the
prices of one or two or high-end artifacts or pieces of art.
So that debate is vain.
More important are to answer the questions. If one would accede to the wishes
of these yellers and if one would introduce such laws, what would that bring
for an improvement for these yellers?
Where would be the advantage?
Would their budgets grow then?
Would be meteorite then become cheaper?
Would then more meteorites found on Earth?
What would that mean for the recovery of the rare and scientifically especially
interesting types?
Would then end more material in the labs and national collections?
Would you have then still that influx of material for free due to the
classification process system?
THOSE are the questions to be answered, before one thinks about banning all
commerce.
And partially they are already answered. In Australia. In Oman. In Libya. In
South Africa. In Algeria.
Shawn - one can like it or not - it has proved that there is simply and by far
no such economic and efficient way for meteoritics to get the objects for their
research - than to buy them from the professional private specialists.
Best!
Martin
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] Im Auftrag von Shawn Alan
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. April 2011 08:49
An: [email protected]
Betreff: [meteorite-list] NYT story
Hello Agee and Listers,
Agee thank you for sharing your side of your story. I have to say I have read
the NYT again and WOW. But again the title says it all.....Black-Market
Trinkets From Space. The bias started off right in the title and the writer did
a good job with getting readership, but in a bad way. I am not much of a person
to keep up with NYT but I have to say he sure did know how to write a title.
At first I didn't notice it but then the word Trinkets popped. I am confused
how the writer is demoting meteorite to mere trinkets that you get at a
carnival or some quarter machine. Do people sell Trinkets on the BLACK
MARKET.... No they sell big guns, and other expensive multi billion dollar
items. It just shows that the NYT thinks this topic is a joke and all they need
and want ratings. Black Market in any title will make people stop and take a
look at the article.
But I do have to say out of this negative reporting it has promoted an
awareness about meteorites and how important they are for science and history.
As days pass and I learn more about new discoveries or old ones from historic
books, I learn more about who we are as humans and how important these rocks
are to us. I am fascinated by the rich stories and the new discoveries that can
piece together it started.
However, this isn't the first time this has happened where people ride off each
other for profit. Its been done from the first meteorite fall and will continue
to do so because of the value that is put forth on meteorites and how they play
a key role in understanding the universe. I just hope that science and
collectors keep working together and making history happen as apposed to some
other countries that have law on meteorite.
Shawn Alan
IMCA 1633
eBaystore
http://shop.ebay.com/photophlow/m.html
[meteorite-list] NYT storyCarl Agee agee at unm.edu
Tue Apr 5 11:28:10 EDT 2011
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