No Libertarians, real people
http://linderfairtax.house.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=MeetSponsors.Home Larry Alster 91 Miata White Knight 92 Miata Silver Bullet 92 Miata Honey B 04 MSM MX-5 Whooosh 06 WRX STi Subie From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rob Argento Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 8:30 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: NMC - Healthcare Crisis Debate / Gay Marriage /Fair tax Well, at this point it doesn't really matter much if it is 23% or 30%. It is more the feasibility of the plan. As with all taxes the rate, should it be instituted, would probably go both up and down depending on who is in power and what funds were needed. The 30% figure was not a lie - it was a misunderstanding. Someone just figured backwards. IF the added on tax was 30% then 23% of what one would pay would be taxes. The proposal as interpreted by Larry is a 23% add on making 19% of the price paid taxes. So, probably no liars nor idiots, merely frayed tempers. But, as I said, I would think it is the PRINCIPLE of such a system we are discussing - not the detail. I am assuming that the current suggested rate, 23%, was suggested to make the revenue equal to the amount brought in by income taxes - when the proposal was written. We know that income tax revenues vary, decreasing in times of great unemployment thus adding to budget deficits. But by definition this current is meant to be budget/tax neutral, bringing in no more nor no less than the income tax of today. If this truly IS the case, none of us really know. We just have to trust the guy who did the calculation. That the IRS would be closed may or may not be true. Some authority would have to administer and enforce the new system. In my business we put in very many hours every month figuring out how much money we were to pay in monthly. And the authorities kept very busy auditing very many businesses just to keep us honest. And, I as said before, the rate of undeclared, falsely declared or wrongly declared taxes `was pretty high. This was in a system of 25%, quite close to the 23% proposed. I sometimes felt that I was working more as a tax man than a businessman, the amount of effort we had to put into keeping the books straight. But, sure. Give it a try. I understand how the grass can look greener from your side of the fence. But taxes are taxes. And people are people and it probably won't be more or less fair than the willingness of people to pay it - and that on the value citizens get for their tax dollar. AS it is today, you guys get the strongest military machine in the history of mankind. And not much more of anything else. And if that works for you, then fine. For me it's "Been there. Done that" on a consumption tax so I will probably wait until the next suggestion for tax reform before jumping on the band wagon. I don't think it is a BAD idea, but I don't think it is a very good one either. It simply shuffles the deck a bit. I just don't see it as a panacea but it is positive that someone is at least trying. Is it true that it is only the American Libertarians who are supporting this? I have not seen anything suggesting that the dominating political parties are at all interested in tax reforms. /Robban From: Sunday, September 27, 2009 7:36 PM To: 'Mark Cookson'; 'Will Erickson' Cc: [email protected]; 'Rob Argento Mark This site http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer will give you the real info without any 30% on top of your cost BS. As soon as you hear someone quoting 30% it is a tip off that they are stretching the facts since the projected tax will be 23%. The 30% number comes because of the way they try to run the numbers. Larry Alster 91 Miata White Knight 92 Miata Silver Bullet 92 Miata Honey B 04 MSM MX-5 Whooosh 06 WRX STi Subie From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mark Cookson Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 6:03 PM To: Will Erickson Cc: [email protected]; Larry Alster; Rob Argento Subject: Re: NMC - Healthcare Crisis Debate / Gay Marriage /Fair tax So I was reading up on "FairTax" (one word, not two) on factcheck.org (which I believe is a reasonably accurate and unbiased site) and was quite startled by how much I didn't like it. It taxes things that have never been taxed before, like house purchases, rent, and interest payments. I don't the idea of paying 30% more for my house, or then paying a 30% tax on the interest for the loan (which would itself be 30% more than I would have needed to borrow). They believe that 15% of people will dodge this tax (just like 15% of people currently dodge the current tax system), and that's factored into the need for a 30% value to keep the federal government's income level the same as before. But, if people stop buying stuff, or stop borrowing stuff (isn't there like a couple billion dollars in interest paid every year?), then the government's income level falls and they'll need to raise the rate. I worry that it would reduce the amount of consumption in the US, and for an economy that runs on consumption, that's going to be a problem for everyone. I also worry that a lot of money out there wouldn't be taxed (which might or might not currently be taxed) because it just sits in stocks/bonds/mutual funds/savings and never gets spent. I don't know if this money, or just the interest it's earning, would be taxed, and if it's not taxed, then I think that's definitely missing the idea of a "fair tax". At least with the current income tax that money was taxed before it bought the stocks, etc., but now it won't be and that means that they have to increase the tax rate on everything else. So, if Warren Buffet sits around with 40 billion dollars in the bank and never buys a new house (which he hasn't done in like 30 years), and generally doesn't buy much "stuff", how is this a "fair tax"? After all, rich people really don't buy all that much more stuff (after a while, all that extra money isn't really useful), in fact some of them got rich by NOT spending their money (I know I would have a lot more if I didn't keep dumping it into cars and computers) I for one would love to make 20% more income and start living like a pauper, not buying anything, just so that I could watch my bank account grow, but if I'm not mistaken, that's what got Japan into it's recession -- something that it's just now getting out of some 20 years later. I like the idea of a flat tax on income without any loopholes. Actually, come to think of it, I like a graduated tax without any loopholes, which would be what we would have if we just removed the loopholes. Mark On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Will Erickson <[email protected]> wrote: I have to say I'm kind of enjoying these emails. I think Bill's right, the FM turbo's are now so well sorted we just don't have many problems to try and solve. 3 years strong on my 94 FM2 and have yet to experience any issues other than bad plug wires and a blown off intercooler pipe. Here's my contribution to the dialog: http://www.ronpaul.com/ Will (going back to my quiet little corner) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Alster" <[email protected]> To: "'Rob Argento'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 1:52 PM Subject: RE: NMC - Healthcare Crisis Debate / Gay Marriage /Fair tax > Again you need to read the info on the bill. It's not the same as a flat > tax or a VAT for a number of different reasons. > > Not the least of which is the Prebate which allows the "poor" to live > virtually tax free. > > > > > Larry Alster > > 91 Miata White Knight > 92 Miata Silver Bullet > 92 Miata Honey B > 04 MSM MX-5 Whooosh > 06 WRX STi Subie > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rob Argento > Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2009 3:41 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: NMC - Healthcare Crisis Debate / Gay Marriage /Fair tax > > I have not taken part in the "debate" in that it hasn't been very > informative. I have heard the same > old arguments/accusations from all. But I DO believe that there is a need > for exchange and debate. > I only wish it was a bit more civil and not a boxing contest to see who > can > get in the quickest > blows. If you guys have a hard time understanding the civil war in > Yugoslavia, neighbor against > neighbor, just reread your own exchange. > > Besides, I lurk here to read about Miata power issues, not uninformative > debates and verbal boxing > matches. > > That being said, I found it interesting that the concept of the "fair tax" > was brought up. And Larry > is, of course, right in saying that we should look at it before simply > throwing it out based upon > its name or which politicians have brought it up. > > As I understand it the "Fair tax" is a tax paid on consumption of > services, > goods, whatever paid by > the end buyer. Much like a sales tax or the European VAT or the Swedish > MOMS. Yes, there are > differences, but for all practical purposes it is a tax not on income but > taken out when you USE the > money for your own pleasure or need. > > While the American designers of this proposal probably mean well, I have > lived under this system > and, quite frankly, it doesn't work and is far from being fair. In Sweden > (and Denmark) this tax is > 25%. Something that would have cost $100 actually costs me $125. It is > a > 25% added on tax - or > counted backwards, 20% of all money I spend is tax. Well, sounds fair > but... > > What is created is an enormous black market. Someone comes to me and > wants > to buy a computer for > let us say $1000. Well, actually I only get $800. $200 is tax which I > will > hand over to Uncle Sven. > My company will make a profit on the $800 and this I pay a tax on. My > customer only HAS $800 to > spend. Do I say no to the sale or just keep it off of the books. In fact > if > I keep it off of the > books, I will reduce my profit and thus my income tax (for in Sweden we > also > have an income tax). > > The system creates an incentive to make one's major purchases outside of > the > country. Why should I > buy my BMW in Sweden if I can go to Poland and buy it there for 20% less? > Or clothing, or > electronics or food or gasoline if I live near a boarder? OK, most people > can't afford to travel > that far, but those with the MOST money to spend most often have even the > means to travel and an > even bigger incentive - in that richer people simply buy more stuff. > > So, the poor schmuck with not much money can hardly take advantage of this > part of the black market. > Well, he can buy stuff that others smuggle in - like booze, cigarettes, > and > whatever there are high > profits and good demand for. In fact, the smugglers goods ARE in higher > demand. They cost 20% > less! > > On top of that, I who may be trying to run a legit business, simply can't > compete with the black > marketer. He will always be cheaper that I for the same goods or the same > service. > > OK, you guys might hate your income taxes and your IRS. That is probably > natural - but take another > look at any suggestion to replace it. We all want a fair tax. If you can > make it any more fair, > please do! I am open to all suggestions. But the current proposal for a > "fair tax" and its distant > cousin, the "flat tax" both seems to me not to solve anything at all. > > > /Robban - who commutes sort of between Europe and Florida though not in my > MSM. > > > > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 14:16:45 -0400 > From: "Larry Alster" <[email protected]> > Subject: RE: NMC - Healthcare Crisis Debate / Gay Marriage > To: "'Dan Scolnick'" <[email protected]>, "'Casey Wheeler'" > <[email protected]>, <[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected] > Message-ID: <05b101ca3f9e$ac667960$05336c...@net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hey Dan > > > > Rather than just making stupid comments about it why don't you try the > concept about reading up on it before you mouth off. > > Larry Alster > > > _______________________________________________ > Miatapower mailing list > [email protected] > http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower > > _______________________________________________ > Miatapower mailing list > [email protected] > http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower _______________________________________________ Miatapower mailing list [email protected] http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
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