Your math is correct. The FM formula is correct too. It's the same thing
organized differently. Your last statement tells why the ECU is pulling out
fuel. Either the WBO2 has a problem or it's not grounded properly. Although
you won't find this in any manual, I've found that for Miatas the ECU and all
sensor-related devices work best when they're all grounded to the ppf using
separate ground wires for each major component. Why the ppf? Because that's
where the battery is already grounded and all electronics should be grounded to
the most conductive common structure. The ppf is a much better ground than the
body/chassis because it's aluminum instead of steel.
----- Original Message -----
Ray,
I am using the AEM wide band controller. According to the Flying Miata"s
tuning manual for the Link using that WB02, they say, "WB02 targets are derived
from this formula, : WB02 target = 128 - (WBvoltage *25.6). This seems a little
different than what you just told me. As I said before, their zone values are
22, 24, 29, 44, 58 and 66 (29 kpa to 227 kpa).
So if you could help me here, and tell me if this is correct, it would be
appreciated.
Flying Miata's WB02 (non display unit) target number for Z26 (idle) is "22".
The displayed 02 value when the timer ran out was 87. so using the formula you
just sent me:
87 /25.6 = 3.39. then 5 - 3.39 = 1.61
If I use FM's formula to see what the voltage is they are saying I should be
getting for that zone would be:
128 - 22 = 106. then 106 / 25.6 = 4.14 volts for Idle (29kpa), and
128 - 66 = 62, then 62 / 25.6 = 2.42 volts for zone 6 (227 kpa).
Am I doing this correct? I really don't fully understand some of this, and
not sure what the numbers are telling me.
One thing I do remember from tuning the old car, was that the 02 reading at
idle was always at 30 to 34 on the keypad display. This was when it was in the
first car before it was wrecked. So for some reason, it is now showing 87 - 90.
Thanks Ken M
___________________________________________
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95 (2)
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 15:46:38 -0700
It normally takes a while for the O2 sensor to warm up and start working, and
it has a heater in it to keep it warm when there's not much exhaust to heat it.
If it's wired right it will warm up in about 30-45 sec after key-on even if
you don't start the engine. Data from it before it's hot is not valid, hence
the timer ... which assumes that you're not going to warm it up before starting
the engine. To check actual lambda based on the calibration chart for your
sensor, divide the displayed O2 value by 25.6 and subtract that result from 5
to calculate the voltage that the ECU is seeing at its sensor input pin. If
that voltage doesn't agree with the WBO2's own lambda display then something is
corrupting the voltage before it's getting to the ECU.
----- Original Message -----
Ray,
I just went out and started the car and took a video of the event. It has
not been started for several months, so I let it warm up to temp. and shut it
off.
I restarted it and let it idle. I went to the INJ/W2 screen and the O2 was
32-34 while the timer was running. I clicked down to the ZONEF screen, and zone
100 at idle was 50. As soon and timer ran out, it started pulling fuel. I
clicked back up to the O2 screen, and the O2 was now showing 87 instead of
32-33 and going down because the ECU is pulling fuel. I clicked back to the
ZONEF screen, and watched the ECU pull the fuel out to 33 (from 50) when it
stalled.
So there is some sort of problem with the signal form the WB02?
Thanks
Ken M
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95 (2)
Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2011 14:39:13 -0700
A video won't hurt but all that's needed is the range of numbers seen in
the O2 readout.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Maguire
To: Ray Ayala
Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 1:15 PM
Subject: RE: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95 (2)
Ray,
I will have to look at that and see. I don't know off of the top of my
head. I think I will make a video of the event and see if I can get it to you.
Would that help?
Thanks
Ken M
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95 (2)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 20:19:58 -0700
There may a ground connection missing somewhere in the wiring harness and
that can cause sensor voltages (particularly O2 sensors) to have an offset in
them. What actual numbers do you see for O2 in the injector% screen and how do
they compare to what's in the relevant O2 target zone?
----- Original Message ----- Thanks Ray,
I have checked all of the settings, and they are the same as the original
set-up. WB is selected in the O2 zone. I have gone over the Datalogs and I have
not found any of the other sensors to be at fault. They seem to be reading OK
on the datalogs. This is why I have been stumped. It is also why I keep
thinking it's the wiring harness. Maybe there is something broken in it
somewhere that I have not found.
What would you do if you were me? Is it possible that if the harness was
damaged, that it could cause the Link to think that the fuel is too high, and
make it want to take out fuel? I don't know how the ECU communicates with the
WBO2 when it is tuning, or what to look for that would tell me that it is
working correctly, or not. Obviously, it is not working right, but I don't know
how to chase it down from this point.
I don't know if it is fixable the way it is. If I had a working 95 that I
could swap out parts into, to check to see if they display the same problem,
that would be the ticket. But there isn't anyone, so I may just have to start
over.
If you have any additional suggestions, I am willing to give it a try.
Thanks
Ken M
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95 (2)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 16:14:46 -0700
That's correct re. both the zones and the keypad display. The letter 'w'
should also be displayed in that screen if the ECU is set to use a wideband O2
sensor. It's a good idea to also chack ALL other sensor readings to see if
they appear to be in the correct ballpark because some things (like
temperature) will alter effective targets when they have unusual values.
As for the old ECU's settings, they have been know to change all by
themselves as well as when the ECU is subjected to either physical or
electrical trauma.
----- Original Message -----
OK. I'm not sure if I completely understand what you are telling me. I
have split up what you wrote in your message, and see if I get this right.
"If the lambda value displayed on the keypad is higher than the value
stored in the O2 target zone" - Is this the value in zones Z26 thru Z31?
" for the current manifold pressure then the autotuning leans out the
fuel, so it's important to know what numbers are in the target zones" The
settings for the WBO2 for the zones mentioned above are, 22 for zone 100, and
24 for 200 (ect), 29, 44, 58 and 66 for zone 600.
and how they compare to the displayed lambda values. - I am not clear
which window on the keypad this would be? I need to get a refresher on this. Is
this in the Lambda Screen, or the INJ%-O2 screen? Or something else?
One other thing I did not mention is that ECU was never altered from the
time I removed it from the wrecked car until I fired it up the new car. No
changes were made to the software or settings. I started it up on the previous
maps and settings from the start. It performed great in the old installation,
but immediately started the fuel leanout problem as soon as I turned it on in
the new car. The settings are all the same, except for the fuel which now has
been changed by the ECU. I reloaded the old fuel maps for a starting point, but
the ECU keeps trying to lean it out.
I hope this information helps. Let me know.
Thanks.
Ken M
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95 (2)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 14:04:16 -0700
If the lambda value displayed on the keypad is higher than the value
stored in the O2 target zone for the current manifold pressure then the
autotuning leans out the fuel, so it's important to know what numbers are in
the target zones and how they compare to the displayed lambda values.
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Maguire
To: Ray Ayala
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 1:29 PM
Subject: RE: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95 (2)
Ray, To be honest, it has been a while since I worked on it. But what
would normally happen is, I could start it up, and it would run in closed loop?
until the timer expired. Once the timer expired, and it would switch to running
off of the O2 sensor, you could watch the O2 readings go from 14.X and steadily
drop down to 10.0, and then die, unless I intervened and manually start adding
fuel back to the map. Is that what you are asking?
I don't believe that I have a datalog that captures the event, I was
going to do one, but never did. Would that help? Or do you think there is
another approach?
Thank,
Ken M
------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95 (2)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 13:16:15 -0700
How do those numbers compare with the target for the zone you're in?
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Maguire
To: Ray Ayala
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 12:52 PM
Subject: RE: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95 (2)
As it leans out, you can watch in on the keypad as the numbers drop.
Ken
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95 (2)
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 12:52:11 -0700
As the car leans out, does the displayed lambda stay fixed, go up or
down steadily, or wander around?
----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Maguire
To: [email protected] ; Ray Ayala
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 12:38 PM
Subject: RE: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95 (2)
LeGreat
I have taken the connection apart several times, and re-checked it.
Each time it comes out to the same conclusion, which matches the instructions
from FM, and the previous installation notes. Unless I really have lost my
mind, it does not appear to be the source of the problem.
I had three WB sensors, the first one, the one from my son and the
brand new one. I installed each one in the exhaust and hooked it up to the
Link, each one functioned the same, and the Link to pulled fuel. What would be
the chances that all three are bad? I thought there was a way to check the
sensor? I can't remember if there is and if I did check it, it has been a while.
Ray,
Thanks for the reply.
When I installed each new component, I have a specific check list
that I go through setting it all up. I keep a log of each set-up, with notes on
each parameter for each setting. The O2 setting is set for the WB
configuration, and the O2 targets are set as required for theLink, which is,
22, 24, 29, 44, 58 and 66. I have data-logged the car to try and find the
problem, but the problem is with me because I am not an expert is reading the
logs. I'm not sure that it could be found that way on not. Maybe you would know.
Thanks for the input guys. Unless I am brain dead, and the WB is
not installed correctly, I am still wondering if the problem is in the harness
(maybe)?
Ken M
--------------------------------------------------------------------
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95 (2)
From: [email protected]
Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 13:25:58 -0400
...that is, perhaps the WB02 sensor end in the exhaust isn't
working, even though you replaced it once. Are you certain it is connected
properly and the Link is set to WB02?
-----Original Message-----
From: legreatone <[email protected]>
To: miatapower <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, Sep 4, 2011 1:21 pm
Subject: Re: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95
I know the message was intended for Ray, but it may be that the
WB02 isn't working right. It may be that the link is responding to the input
received from the WB02.
Jerry aka LGO
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Maguire <[email protected]>
To: miatapower <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, Sep 4, 2011 12:30 pm
Subject: Requesting some help with a Link for Miata, 1994-95
Dear Ray,
A fellow member on Miata.net (Fergus) gave me your contact info,
and said that you may be able to help me with a problem that I am having with
my Flyin Miata, turbo charged Miata with a Link ECU. The story is long, but I
will shorten it a bit.
I had a 91 Miata that I built using the framework from a 95. A 95
engine and wiring harness. I installed a FM turbo kit and drove it for several
years with no problem. That car was involved in an accident three years ago,
and totaled. So I bought a 91 Mariner Blue (which I wanted for along time), and
stripped that car down and rebuilt it from the ground up. I incorporated all of
the stuff from the totaled car, plus more upgrades into the new 91 chassis. The
only thing that was not the same was the wiring harness. The 95 harness in the
totaled car was somewhat incomplete, and I had a complete harness from a 94, so
I used that one instead.
After 4 months of building the car, I had it finished. It started
and ran pretty good, except for a oil leak that I had to correct. I took it out
for a drive to work on some tuning, and it developed a problem with the WB02
sensor. For some reason, the autotune feature was removing fuel from the map
until it went completely lean, and would stall. It would do this while idling
or driving. The WB02 I have is a AME non-gauge type, so I borrowed a Gauge type
from my son and hooked it up to read the exhaust gasses while the non-gauge was
used with the ECU. The gauge type mirrored the readout on the keypad, and I
assumed that the WB02 had gone bad. I purchased a new WB02, complete with
controller, and installed it. At first it appeared to resolve the problem, but
did not. The ECU kept removing fuel from the map.
I then thought that something was wrong with the ECU. I had a
problem with it a while back where something got burnt on the circuit board,
and had it fixed by Flyin Miata. So I removed it, and there seemed to be a new
problem with a capacitor on the board. I found a local shop to fix it for me,
and re-installed it, but that did not change anything. The chip in it was not
the latest chip, so for fun, I wrote FM and got them to burn me a new chip with
the last software revision on it. That did not change anything. I was able to
find a used Link for a 94-95, that was in good condition, with no repairs, and
installed it in place of the one I had, that did not change anything.
I then thought, well maybe it's the wiring harness, since that is
really the only thing that was not used from the first car. But it is suppose
to be the same as the early 95. I know that it is not "Exactly" the same,
because I went over the complete harness before installing it and I could see
some obvious differences in, but the the ECU, it should not have mattered. So I
am not sure if I should go ahead and remove the 94 harness and re-install the
95 that I know worked?
Can you think of something that I am overlooking? I am hoping that
it is something simple that I just can't put my finger on. I was hoping that
someone with your expertise may be able to see something that I cannot.
Thank you for taking the time to read about my problem, and I hope
you can shed some light on this perplexing problem.
Ken Maguire
Louisville, Ky
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