Re: [uf-new] Re: markup advice for the citation microformat (Michael McCracken)

Tue, 24 Apr 2007 09:34:40 -0700 

Note on the date discussion below.
On Friday at the Diversifying The Ecosystem For Online Video session which I moderated, there was a lot of discussion about things like this and how developers always go "amurican" as it were and that's alienating to the rest of the world. 


Is there something we could do here to make this more inviting to  
people elsewhere?  This makes sense to me:



<dd class="date">Publish date: <abbr class="date-published"
title="YYYYMMDD">


as neutral

but this:


MM/DD/YYYY</abbr> ...</dd>


reverts to the american date standard.


At Dabble we wrote some code to translate all the different date  
formats we are getting both outside and inside.  Can the microformat  
also be set up to be flexible?  Also, a lot of video we see just has  
a year, no month or day.  So can the formats be adjustable that way?


Just something to keep in mind.

mary

Mary Hodder
Founder:  Dabble
Blogs:  Dabble.com/blog
Napsterization.org/stories

On Apr 24, 2007, at 9:20 AM, Kristin Caulfield wrote:


 Hi Mike,


Thanks for the thorough response. I'd be happy to help "pull a  
little" on the process of developing hcite, particularly from a  
user point of view. I'm much more of a front end Web person  
focusing on design and IA. So if any information on how we  
categorize and collect metadata on our publications would be of use  
to you, I'd be happy to share.  Right now, I've got developers  
setting up the backend database and CMS while I work on the layout  
template. But once I've got a working semblance of the site, I'll  
share it with you and it should give you a good working site to  
look at....We have A LOT of publications. At this stage of the  
game, I'm not even sure of how I would use this in the future, but  
I do know that I like the possibilities and if I'm doing the mark  
up work anyway, I might as well do it with an eye to the future.  
That said, I've got some questions/comments below on your reply:



I'm also a bit fuzzy on how I would use hCard in combination with  
this microformat for author and publisher. For each publication  
there would always be at least one faculty member associated with  
our Center as an author and we will have contact and bio pages  
for these people that easily lends itself to using hCard.




I'm not sure what you're asking here. Hopefully going through the
examples below will help...



Your examples helped a lot. I wasn't clear on the fact that you can  
combine classes to allow the use of multiple microformats on the  
same bits of information. Like I said, I'm a real newbie. I haven't  
gotten the book yet, but I did just get the the O'Reilly shortcut  
today.



for hcite, we'd mark up the date with class="date-published" and an
abbr element with a machine-readable date abbreviation, like this:

<dd class="date">Publish date: <abbr class="date-published"
title="YYYYMMDD">MM/DD/YYYY</abbr> ...</dd>



The date issue is something that we're working on right now in  
developing the backend database to our site. As mentioned in the  
citation-brainstorming section of the wiki, so many publication  
dates don't follow the standard machine-readable format of  
YYYYMMDD. Books tend to be just years, journals are usually month/ 
year or season/year, etc. In our case, except for newspaper  
articles and the like, most of our publication dates wouldn't fit  
into the YYYYMMDD format. I don't really have a question about this  
issue right now, but if there have been any new developments/ 
thoughts on this beyond what is on the wiki, I would like to know.



        <dd class="category">Publication Type: Journal article</dd>


This is still up for debate.



Is the debate as to whether or not to include this in the schema at  
all? Or would this be 'format'?



Here we would have the author represented as an hcard. We've also  
been

using class="creator" instead of author, to allow for editors, etc.,
without requiring a lot of predefined class names.




Would it be best to use 'author' when the person is an author in  
the truest sense of the word and then use "creator" for all other  
situations (editor, translator, etc.)? Or just use 'creator' for  
every variation of authoring situations?


That's all for now.

Cheers,
Kristin


PS. I keep getting an internal server error on Brian Suda's site  
either using the X2C page or the favelet. I have a mac at home, but  
haven't had a chance to look at your BibDesk app.




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2007 10:58:02 -0700
From: "Michael McCracken" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [uf-new] markup advice for the citation microformat
To: "For discussion of new microformats."
        <[email protected]>
Message-ID:
        <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Hi Kristin, welcome.

2007/4/20, Kristin Caulfield <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

Hi all,


I'm very much a newbie to microformats, having had my interest  
peaked by Dan Cederholm at An Event Apart in Boston in late  
March. So, I'm sure my question is elementary (I hope not too  
elementary for this list). I'm working on front end coding for an  
academic research center's new website that will provide users   
with access to all kinds of research publications by its faculty.  
I looked through the information on the wiki about the citation  
microformat and would like some feedback concerning whether or  
not I am heading in the right direction with how I'm coding  
publication entries for a microformat that is still in  
development. I would like to do as much work as I can now to mark  
up these items correctly even though the microformat is still  
being worked on. Any tips or suggestions ?


The hcite format is pretty slow in development (I think everyone
involved is doing so as a second or third project), but if you are
willing to help pull a little, some experience with trying to use it
in a site like yours would really help move the process along.

My suggestion is to try to use the existing proposed format, find
where there are problems, post them here and help us figure out
solutions.
The existing format is on the citation-brainstorming wiki page here:

http://microformats.org/wiki/citation- 
brainstorming#Working_straw_schema



There are currently two consumers of hcite-marked-up content that  
I know of.
You could use them to see if your content is being read as you  
would like.


The first is Brian Suda's X2C, a web service that uses XSLT to
transform hcite into other formats, currently just bibtex:
http://suda.co.uk/projects/microformats/X2C/

If you use a Mac, you can also use my app, BibDesk, to browse the web
and look for hcite formatted content. Because hcite is not complete,
it's a hidden feature now. I wrote more about that here:

http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/2007/01/26/bibdesk-and-the-hcite- 
microformat/


If we make changes based on your experience, I'll try to incorporate
those into BibDesk's hcite support as fast as possible.


Here is some background information on how we will group  
publications on the site. Our top level categories for  
publications are: Published papers, working papers, conference  
papers, seminar papers, books, datasets, and "In the News". It  
isn't until you get one level down in our categorization scheme  
that publications will take on standard bibliographic types. For  
example,  our "In the News" category contains standard types of  
non-academic work produced by our faculty: Op-ed, book reviews,  
interviews, magazine articles, newspaper articles, etc.



OK


I'm also a bit fuzzy on how I would use hCard in combination with  
this microformat for author and publisher. For each publication  
there would always be at least one faculty member associated with  
our Center as an author and we will have contact and bio pages  
for these people that easily lends itself to using hCard.




I'm not sure what you're asking here. Hopefully going through the
examples below will help...


Here are a couple of examples of how I am coding brief summaries  
for published journal articles and newspaper articles:


<dl class="inthenews">

        <dt class="title"><a href="res_publicat/pub_papers/ 
summary_pubpapers.htm">Assessing China's Power</a></dt>
        <dd class="author">by <a href="people/longbio.htm">Joseph  
S. Nye, Jr.</a></dd>
        <dd class="publisher">Published by: <cite><a href="http:// 
www.boston.com">The Boston Globe</a></cite></dd>
        <dd class="description">We examine the empirical role of  
different explanations for the lack of flows of capital from rich  
to poor countries&mdash;the &ldquo;Lucas Paradox.&rdquo; The  
theoretical explanations include differences in  
fundamentals&hellip;</dd>

        <dd class="category">Publication Type: Op-Ed</dd>

        <dd class="date">Publish date: MM/DD/YYYY <a  
href="res_publicat/pub_papers/summary_inthenews.htm"  
class="more">More</a>

</dl>

<dl class="paper">


For hcite, the root element should also have the class 'hcite'.


        <dt class="title"><a href="res_publicat/pub_papers/ 
summary_pubpapers.htm">Reconciliation as identity change: A  
social-psychological perspective</a></dt>


title is fine, and if you add class="uri" to the link, it will be
picked up as a link that is an identifier for the citation.


        <dd class="author">by <a href="people/ 
longbio.htm">Herbert C. Kelman</a></dd>



Here we would have the author represented as an hcard. We've also  
been

using class="creator" instead of author, to allow for editors, etc.,
without requiring a lot of predefined class names.

Here's what that would look like with a minimal hcard:

     <dd class="vcard creator">by <a class="fn" href="...">Herbert C.
Kelman</a></dd>

(Other µf people, correct me if I'm getting something wrong here.)


        <dd class="description">This artcle focuses on  
reconciliation in the context of and in relation to an emerging  
or recently completed process of conflict resolution.&hellip;</dd>



'description' is fine, an hcite consumer will read that (BibDesk  
reads

it as the abstract).


        <dd class="category">Publication Type: Journal article</dd>


This is still up for debate.


        <dd class="date">Publish date: MM/DD/YYYY <a  
href="res_publicat/pub_papers/summary_pubpapers.htm"  
class="more">More</a></dd>


for hcite, we'd mark up the date with class="date-published" and an
abbr element with a machine-readable date abbreviation, like this:

<dd class="date">Publish date: <abbr class="date-published"
title="YYYYMMDD">MM/DD/YYYY</abbr> ...</dd>



Let me know if you have any questions, and if you give these  
changes a

try, we'd love to hear what experience you have in publishing with
hcite.


</dl>


Full summaries would also include: Author bio information, the  
full Chicago Manual of Style formatted citation, and copyright  
information.



And if the general microformat list is more appropriate, I  
apologize. Since citation is still an open microformat I came here.



I think this list is fine. It seems like most of the people  
working on

hCite are also on this list...



Thanks for your help,
K. Caulfield


Thanks,
-mike

--
Michael McCracken
UCSD CSE PhD Candidate
research: http://www.cse.ucsd.edu/~mmccrack/
misc: http://michael-mccracken.net/wp/



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