I always thought the Flems got a rather better economic deal than the Walloons Willy. On the other issue, I've been wondering whether the Israeli action has been about equalising Hamas and Fatah so they will have another go at each other. The solution in the Middle east is absolutely obvious and totally impossible. Peace is the solution, so who and what is preventing this?
On 16 Jan, 19:23, "willy minnen" <[email protected]> wrote: > Even when every man has a vote, a minority can oppress a majority. That > lasted in my state for a hundred years. From 1830 till 1930 the Flemish were > oppressed by the frenchspeaking. Both languages just got equal rights in > 1932. > Every person has a free mind, a free opinion, but masses are manipulated, > not considering if the leaders are right or wrong. > Just charismatic persons: Nelson Mandela, etc. can break this almost > automatism. > Love and peace. Willy. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: nominal9 > To: "Minds Eye" > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 7:51 PM > Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: Gaza > > One person.... one vote..... Israel, West Bank and Gaza (not even > counting Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Jordan or other places), > all together...... who wins the elections, the Jews or the > Muslims? ...... White South Africa under apartheid was called > Democratic.... but the "homelands" got no votes..... > nominal9. > > On Jan 15, 12:50 am, "Chris Jenkins" <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Correction, "There almost 1.5 Million Arab-Israelis, almost twice the > ratio > > of Arabic Israelis to Jew Israelis as there are Caucasian Americans to > > African Americans" obviously should be twice the ratio of African > Americans > > to Caucasian Americans. > > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 12:45 AM, Chris Jenkins > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > The post would agree with your first link, perhaps even moreso: > > >http://exilestreet.com/?p=670 > > > > I don't think an extended exposition of the history of the region > really > > > converts any opinions, and it does always tend to devolve into hair > > > splitting and excruciating examination of citation and bias filter, > which is > > > why the topic is a hand grenade. > > > > With that stated, understanding that no conversions will occur, and > thus, > > > none should be attempted by inflamed or incensed respondents, and that > > > should flame wars begin, appropriate measures will be taken to > extinguish > > > them, I'll offer my opinion, disclaimed as solely that, and > acknowledged as > > > pretty solidly unchangeable based on my research and understanding: > > > > 1. The Jews in Israel are indeed a mixture of a continuous population > of > > > Jews who have been there the entire time, and immigrants who have > traveled > > > back to the region during the first and second Aliyahs. It is often > argued > > > as a point of contention that these Jews are not descendants of the > original > > > Jews of Israel. This is unsupported by their genetic makeup. The Jews > of the > > > diaspora are indeed the descendants of the Israelites driven out of > that > > > land, and carry a cultural identity tied to the land of Israel. > > > >http://www.pnas.org/content/97/12/6769.abstract > > > > "The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of > Jewish > > > communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended > from a > > > common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most > Jewish > > > communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring > non-Jewish > > > communities during and after the Diaspora." > > > > 2. During the the first Aliyah, it was a rare exception for there to > be an > > > issue between the returning Jews and their Arabic neighbors. Land was > bought > > > legally by the immigrants, and the Arabic workers in the area were > often > > > hired on at fair wage to work the area. Although there were some > conflicts > > > in those arrangements, those were isolated cases which were no more > common > > > than in any other segment of society. There is no record of any sort > of > > > "Zionist apartheid" at play, merely a legal immigration of Jews to > their > > > cultural homeland, ahead of European persecution. The foundation of > the > > > Muslim Brotherhood occurred during this time, essentially an Arabic > version > > > of the KKK, which resented the sudden increase in wealthy Jewish > population, > > > and began raising popular ire against the moneyed interlopers. This > shift in > > > the social consciousness began to result in violence, straining the > British > > > control of the mandate, which had been contemplating both granting the > > > Jewish people autonomous space, and returning control of the > Palestinian > > > Mandate to the mixed population of Syrian, Jordanian, Egyptian, and > Lebanese > > > peoples who had populated the area. As the ambiguity of the British > > > governance began to become clear, these hate groups began to cause > riots, > > > first in 1921, and then in a series of skirmishes and attacks > culminating > > > with slaughters in Sapphed and Hebron, a town which had held an > indigenous > > > Jewish population since the time of Christ. Lacking any effective > protection > > > against these attacks, and treated with ambivalence by the British, > > > factions formed within the Jewish settlers including the Stern Gang, > Irgun, > > > and Haganah. > > > > This is when it stopped being black and white. All three of these > groups, > > > at one point or another, engaged in acts, which according to our > > > understanding of the word, constitute terrorism. Deir Yassan signaled > the > > > end of a true Israeli moral high ground. Not that it's not higher than > > > Hamas, but that's when it began to crumble. > > > > In 1947, when the UN Resolution made it official, the surrounding > nations > > > immediately banded together, spawning Israel's war for Independence. > Every > > > man with a gun immediately was pressed into service. Groups already > well > > > armed and trained in combat were particularly useful. In this manner > were > > > these three groups legitimized. > > > > 3. The Palestinian Leadership is in shambles, its ranks corrupt, its > house > > > divided between impotent bureaucrats and cowardly madmen armed with > suicidal > > > devotees who line up their people like sheep for the slaughter, in > order to > > > capture the attention of the world media. Yassir Arafat won the Nobel > Peace > > > Prize after founding Fatah and being declared the "Leader of the > Palestinian > > > People" in 1967, after sneaking into the West Bank to setup recruiting > > > stations for fresh terrorist bombers and hijackers. He engineered > attack > > > after attack around the world until his death, all the while sitting > with > > > world leaders, proclaiming his lack of connection to those events, and > > > "negotiating for peace". The new breed there goes one step further, > > > manipulating the media with much more finesse, drawing fire into > civilian > > > areas, and using complicit local media to create the shots they want > > > broadcast to a global media hungry to root for the underdog. > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys > > > > 4. Someone suggested recently what I think is a terribly good idea. > Fold > > > Gaza under Egyptian protection, and the West Bank under Jordanian > > > protection. That will instantly provide infrastructure, security, > economy, > > > trade, medicine, education, government, law enforcement, food, power, > water, > > > and existing treaties Israel which are rock solid. It will also > completely > > > remove the corrupt government of extremists there. In fact, the only > loss at > > > all is a haphazard and ever shifting gang of thugs who resolves issues > of > > > government loyalty with ad hoc executions: > > > > WARNING: NSFW and graphic - Hamas grabbing Fatah members and summarily > > > executing them. Filmed by Hamas members. > > >http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cec_1181855341 > > > > There almost 1.5 Million Arab-Israelis, almost twice the ratio of > Arabic > > > Israelis to Jew Israelis as there are Caucasian Americans to African > > > Americans, an apt comparison, given some of the terms I hear being > thrown > > > around describing the circumstances there. Arab-Israelis are free to > move to > > > the Palestinian territories any time they like. They do not. Nor do > they > > > riot in the streets in protest of Israel's actions, rise up in some > never > > > ending flood of condemning human judgement. There is no 'V for > Vendetta' > > > moment in Israel where 1.5 Million Arab-Israelis show up with masks > on. For > > > all the propaganda you may hear, and for all their verbal loyalty, an > > > Arab-Israeli, much like an Arab-American, has a far better quality of > life > > > than the average Arab in any country controlled by extremists. > Arab-Israelis > > > are also at risk when missiles are fired in Sderot, and if the longer > range > > > rockets come, into Tel Aviv. Israeli-Arabs will lose that quality of > life if > > > Hamas and Hezbollah win, and they do not want that. > > > > Selfishness, as mentioned in the other thread, is also an indicator of > > > truth. Fear will overcome selfishness, but when you have the IDF > fighting > > > your fears for you, selfishness can reassert. 1.5 Million > Arab-Israelis. How > > > many are rioting in the streets? > > > > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 11:53 AM, frantheman > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > >> Ok, I'm probably being hopelessly optimistic. I take Chris's > tongue-in- > > >> cheek warning about forum grenades seriously - and the Arab-Israeli > > >> issue IS a grenade - an atomic grenade! > > > >> I see and recognise the validity of the arguments from both sides. > I'd > > >> like to read some of what the people who post here (whose opinions > and > > >> intellects I really respect) think. I do have one request - if anyone > > >> feels the urge to flame on the usual themes of holocaust denial, the > > >> Jews are responsible for everything wrong with the world, etc., > please > > >> do it somewhere else. > > > >> I'm posting this link (even though I > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
