“But this is only a manifestation of our expanding understanding, is it not?” – rj
Not quite Jim. I would say that our understanding has changed, true. Also, from many perspectives, it can be seen as ‘expanded’. Of course, I can’t know for sure because as much as I’ve studied the cosmological views of ancient cultures, few if anyone today knows what their full thinking on the topic was. Also, built into your question is the base assumption that we know more, as in a more accurate view, than those in the past did. Again, while it can be viewed this way, personally, I don’t know the full story here. I am sure that some used to use superstition, a form of ignorance, to fill in their views. On the other hand, many today do the same. I would have to assume that you are referring specifically to generally accepted cosmological views of today. Of course, this doesn’t exist. There is argumentation among the ‘professionals’ about much of reality and I’m not talking about simple philosophical argumentation alone here either. Overall, I do agree that what we ‘see’ today is different. “You do not mean that the physical universe is adding matter, evolving laws relating to matter, or even tweaking those laws now operative, do you?” – rj No, this wasn’t my intention Jim. First, the notion of ‘adding matter’ would/could be an entire paper in itself. Secondly, the universe doesn’t ‘evolve laws’, does it? Oh, I guess some find a changing universe and some personify this universe. However, I’ll guess you are not meaning ‘laws’ in the sense of an analysis and conclusion for prediction that humans use here. If I’m wrong, please clarify. And as to ‘tweaking…laws now operative’, you would have to provide a list for me to know for sure what you are asking. Please understand I’m not attempting to be oblique. I merely wish to be sure what you are assuming with your questions so that my responses can address that directly rather than merely projecting upon your words. “If the physical universe (whether expanding, contracting or static) is set, it seems to me that the laws applicable to it, and operative in it, are set too.” – rj This is a very large assumption Jim. And, I do appreciate you being up front with it. My insights about appearances are not quite of the magnitude to be able to make such a blanket statement. I do guess that there are specific ‘laws’. What they are and how they apply to non-humans is another story. Delving a little deeper, I find that what we observe, whether static or changing, has been understood by humans in different realms and at different levels. Again, assuming the current ‘scientific’ analysis, even this seems to change in jumps. Most who adhere to the tenets of science are proud that how things are understood/seen changes all the time. “Thus, as we come to understand more and more, we increase our knowledge of the set universe until, at some point, we understand all those laws. Right?” – rj Jim, for argumentation only, since you ask, no, not right. Not right at all. First, an increase in quantity has nothing to do with an increase in quality, some theories aside. Secondly, you appear to conflate understand and knowledge so I will waffle until I grasp your use of terms better. While some arguments against it have been found, an analogy to what you suggest can be found in one of Zeno’s more famous paradoxes. You know, the one that says that if an arrow is shot towards a specific target, at a given point in time, it can be measured as having gone half way there. Then half again. Then half again etc. Thus always having at least half of the remaining distance to travel and never arriving. Yes, I know, not a concrete and lucid example, but one for fodder. Not wishing to end on such a weak argument, I’ll just add that you are talking about humans ascertaining universal laws. Philosophically and even on a common sense level, such an assumption is fraught with difficulties. Dragons be here!!! :-) On Jul 4, 9:01 am, retiredjim34 <[email protected]> wrote: > OM - you said - what has been included in the ‘physical universe’ has > changed > over time. Yes, I agree. But this is only a manifestation of our > expanding understanding, is it not? You do not mean that the physical > universe is adding matter, evolving laws relating to matter, or even > tweaking those laws now operative, do you? If the physical universe > (whether expanding, contracting or static) is set, it seems to me that > the laws applicable to it, and operative in it, are set too. Thus, as > we come to understand more and more, we increase our knowledge of the > set universe until, at some point, we understand all those laws. > Right? Jim > > On Jul 3, 4:22 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > “OM - no, I do not take any of your comments as personal. I see them > > as challenging what I proposed, which is the hope I had when I posted > > them. Thanks. “ – RJ > > > Thank you Jim…beliefs can be tenacious. > > > “ … the beleif that there is an ultimate theory ofeverythingis not > > mine.” – RJ > > > Oh, I understood that Jim. > > When I responded earlier “… And, yes, this has been pursued ‘forever’. > > However, what has been included in the ‘physical universe’ has changed > > over time. So, this notion can be applied to numerous different > > levels.” I was including Albert and many other human beings. I wished > > to add the less provincial view that what we ‘know’ about the universe > > today is not only different from the past, but different from the > > future too. In this way, Einstein can be seen within the context of > > his pursuit of equations that would ‘explain’ the universe. While > > equations can be seen as analogies, they are not that which is being > > directly apprehended. So, when you now add that “…It must have been > > and be the belief of all those, like Einstein, who chose to devote a > > major part of their life to pursuing it….”, what I believe is that > > Albert was only talking about a description of how ‘matter’ is…nothing > > more. I also believe that his pursuit was along a spiritual one. > > > As to your ‘WHAM’ theory, the notion of change happening in jumps is > > not new either. In fact, I would subscribe to it, along with a few > > others. However, whenever I see the term ‘everything’ associated with > > what weknow, I cringe. No, I do not think that we willeverknow > > ‘everythingabouteverything’. . . at least not in the context you > > appear to be asking the question. > > > On Jul 3, 12:54 pm, retiredjim34 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > OM - no, I do not take any of your comments as personal. I see them as > > > challenging what I proposed, which is the hope I had when I posted > > > them. Thanks. > > > Now for some specific observations. First the beleif that there > > > is an ultimate theory ofeverythingis not mine. It must have been and > > > be the belief of all those, like Einstein, who chose to devote a major > > > part of their life to pursuing it. > > > And about my suggestion that as we approach knowingeverything > > > the rate of knowledge increase should gradually decrease - it is just > > > and only that, a suggestion. It well may be that we gain knowledge at > > > a faster and faster rate until - WHAM - we discover that weknow > > >everything, like hitting a wall. > > > I'd appreciate your reaction to the central thesis of my post - > > > will weeverknoweverythingabouteverything? What do you think? Jim > > > > On Jun 27, 5:47 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > “…And as we come toknowthem here faster and faster, at some point it > > > > would seem that we willknoweverythingabouteverything…” – RJ > > > > > Yes, Jim, this is a common belief. > > > > > “…the ultimate theory ofeverything.” – RJ > > > > > And, yes, this has been pursued ‘forever’. However, what has been > > > > included in the ‘physical universe’ has changed over time. So, this > > > > notion can be applied to numerous different levels. > > > > > “…If knowingeverythingwere obviously not possible, surely this group > > > > would never have begun pursuing that ultimate theory…” – RJ > > > > > Well, while an apparently plausible belief Jim, again, it is not based > > > > upon anything but that, belief. > > > > > “…As we approach knowingeverythingthe rate of knowledge growth will > > > > gradually slow. So by monitoring this rate of growth we should be able > > > > to predict when we willknoweverything. Right?” – RJ > > > > > Surely this is rhetorical. If not, what would such a belief be based > > > > upon? > > > > And, EVEN if it were accurate, at the beginning of your post you said > > > > “..we (mankind) is coming toknow, in a scientific sense, more and > > > > more about more and more, and faster and faster…”. So, based upon your > > > > first observation, IF any conclusion can be gained, even accepting > > > > blindly your last supposition, one would have to conclude that we will > > > > neverknoweverything. And, again, even IF we could, the indicators > > > > are that such a point in time is far far away. > > > > > Please do not take any of the above as personal criticism. I merely am > > > > looking at the logic used. > > > > > On Jun 27, 1:20 pm, retiredjim34 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Looking back over recent decades it seems clear that we (mankind) is > > > > > coming toknow, in a scientific sense, more and more about more and > > > > > more, and faster and faster. Will thereevercome a time when we will > > > > >knoweverythingabouteverything? > > > > > I’ve asked a number of people this question, and all say > > > > > “no.” But it > > > > > seems to me that the correct answer is “yes.” Why? > > > > > First, I’m talking about knowing all the scientific laws > > > > > governing > > > > > the physical universe – nothing more, nothing less. The physical > > > > > universe is immense, but finite. Science has long assumed that the > > > > > laws governing our small bit of it are universal; they apply > > > > > everywhere in the universe just as they apply here. Given then that > > > > > the physical universe is finite, it would seem that the laws governing > > > > > it are also finite. And as we come toknowthem here faster and > > > > > faster, at some point it would seem that we willknoweverythingabout > > > > >everything. > > > > > This also seems to me to be consistent with what Einstein and > > > > > others > > > > > have long sought – the ultimate theory ofeverything. (This effort is > > > > > well described by Brian Greene in his book The Elegant Universe.) If > > > > > knowingeverythingwere obviously not possible, surely this group > > > > > would never have begun pursuing that ultimate theory. > > > > > How might we tell when we are approaching the point where > > > > > weknow > > > > >everything? I expect the growth of knowledge is gaussian. As we > > > > > approach knowingeverythingthe rate of knowledge growth will > > > > > gradually slow. So by monitoring this rate of growth we should be able > > > > > to predict when we willknoweverything. 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