Hey Jim, I'm sorry sir but your post re: 1 makes little sense to me.
Think of it this way. Instead of sleep lets take another critical step to living. Eating. We must eat to gain energy, however to so this means stripping resources from the planet, as the population grows the resources get less and less. Acording to your argument why has not evolution done away with this, why instead have we not evolved to take our engery from the air, or other elements like some organisms do? Besides when a thing is apperant to somebody that says nowt about the validity of it. On 16 July, 18:34, retiredjim34 <[email protected]> wrote: > Ian - thanks for your observations. > Regarding point 1, sleep, it seems to me that your argument > proceeds from the given that we need sleep to a review of what happens > to our physical body during sleep to the conclusion that this must be > necessary. That is what I question - why is something which seems to > me so obviously counter to our survival - when we are alseep we can't > defend outselves - has not resulted in being eliminated, as > evolutionary theory would seem to dictate, but nevertheless still > survives? As you note, there are organisms that don't sleep. (There is > also one that sleeps first with one half of the brain then with the > other half.) But I think it accurate to say that almost every organism > sleeps. Evolution - survival of the fittest - seems well established > to me. So again why do we sleep? Why hasn't this need been eliminated > by evolution? > Regarding point 2, intellegence, good point - it has only been > around for maybe 10,000 years which is barely an instant in > evolutionary time. So who knows if it confers an advantage? I think > each of us knows that it does. To me it seems self-evident. It has > given rise to more and more complex tools, which in turn have > conferred our dominion over all else on the earth, met all our > survival needs in ever more luxurious ways, and opened the door, it > seems to me, to our understanding everything. So while intellegence > may have only been around for an evolutionary moment, its advantages > seem to be clearly major. > If you agree with that, then consider why the age of lizards - > dinosaurs etc. which lasted for maybe 200 million years or more did > not result in absolutely brillant members of the family. Surely some > of them must have been smarter than the rest. Evolutionary theory, I > contend, dictates that these smarter individuals ar more likely to > survive. So why didn't the family, or at least some species of the > family, get smarter and smarter, to the point that they knew > everything? (I suspect one answer might be that they did, and got to > the point where they decided to leave this earthly plane.) > I look forward to your reactions to these observations. Jim > > On Jul 15, 3:53 am, Ian Pollard <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Two points: > > > 1) Regarding sleep. In phylogenic terms, there's a eukarotic branch where > > opisthokonts may have split, creating the genotype we call metazoa (animals, > > broadly speaking); common to all animals is the phenotypic behaviour of > > sleeping*. Other opisthokonts, like collared-flagellates and fungi, don't > > sleep as far as we can tell -- and we obviously don't think of these as our > > possible predators! Hence, in evolutionary terms, our need to sleep has not > > lead to our extinction since all competing species also sleep. You can look > > to other behaviours like shelter building and our strong tribal instincts > > for other reasons why we have been so successful in so many different > > environments. > > > * It's not known whether sponges have circadian clocks, but they do not > > display identifiable sleeping rhythms. > > > 2) Regarding intelligence, a thousand years is no time whatsoever in > > evolutionary terms. You can trace back the evolution of hominid intelligence > > back over 10 millions years. In fact, there's reasonable arguments that our > > intellectual capacity may even diminish as chavs -- supported by welfare > > states -- are successfully raising more children to adulthood. > > > Ian > > > 2009/7/15 [email protected] <[email protected]> > > > > Yet I can't help but think that we have no predetors except our selfs, > > > and we are all programed to sleep when it gets dark, and that > > > intelegence has enabled us to build secure shelters to protect us from > > > those that may harm us whilst asleep. > > > > So I see no contradiction there at all. > > > > On 14 July, 18:35, retiredjim34 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > As I understand one basic premise of the theory of evolution, > > > > survival of the fittest prefers individuals that live longer, breed > > > > faster and leave more progeny. Yet two traits we possess – sleep and > > > > intelligence – seem to contradict this preference. > > > > Sleep works against survival for, while sleeping, an individual > > > can > > > > hardly defend against attack and consumption. So evolution would seem > > > > to have selected those individuals needing less and less sleep, until > > > > sleep would no longer be needed. Yet today, maybe one billion years > > > > after speciation began, we still need our 8 hours of sleep. > > > > Intelligence also seems to disprove the all-encompassing scope > > > > of > > > > evolution. Those individuals better able to recall experience and > > > > predict the future would have an advantage in food-gathering, mate > > > > selection and progeny protection. Yet we hardly seem smarter today > > > > than humans living thousands of years ago. > > > > Are these traits exceptions to evolution? Are there other > > > exceptions? > > > > I expect so. But no one discusses them. Why not?- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
