Actually, that's a good point for certain women! Plus think of those suits of armor and the heavy gear of the modern military. There must be dozens more examples of stress to the shoulders, spine, muscles and nerves of the back which wind up being a chronic problem. I think the more dramatic imjuries are from contact sports and accidents, faulty operations/therapies; less so, are age and normal deterioration/ inability to heal or recoup. In-between, we become informed and try to guard our health overall as best we can. As an aside, I once heard the comment that musical condutors and artists often lived a longer life because they worked with their hands raised and it made for better circulation. Who knows? Now sun screen is a villan for blocking vitamin D plus our more interior life-styles. It's always something! :-) Wonder what eventally happens to the spine of a guy that operates a jack-hammer?
On Jul 21, 8:18 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > I think you left out the cross your heart bra babe. ;-) > > On Jul 21, 7:28 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > And humans have developed ways of coping with this problem: posture, > > proper shoes, weight control, supportive chairs and mattresses/ > > pillows, exercise, sensible lifting and snow shovelling, avoidance of > > heavy purses for women on one shoulder/ heavy book bags, better baby > > carriers, avoidance of stress building up in the neck region. My > > mother's back problems were her un-doing between a early horseback > > riding accident and cyst on her spine in her 20's which was drained- > > she lost her hair- which grew back curly- and spent the summer in the > > sun drinking a mix of raw liver and orange juice. Then a later disc > > problem and postponement of surgery which she delayed and sought > > alternative treatments which worsened her problem.At 50 her health was > > ruined with a 20 year decline. Added to this was her love of bad shoes > > which ruined her feet. How this woman made these stairs was a tour de > > force. > > > On Jul 21, 6:38 pm, GarrieMushet <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/07/1/l_071_02.html > > > > This link should explain to you the evolution of the human being's > > > practice of walking on its hind legs, and it's associated problems. > > > > And I never stated that inherent back pain happens without a cause. > > > There is a cause. That cause is the stresses and strains on our spinal > > > column that result from our physiology's ability to support our > > > practice of walking on hind legs. > > > > On Jul 21, 11:49 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > “It's not really relevant because it doesn't refute, support or amend > > > > my point.” – BG > > > > > First, I don’t play by whatever rules you appear to demand. I discuss > > > > things. I add things. I comment on things etc. Formal debate is not my > > > > goal. This said, I still question your axiom that “That [inherent? > > > > back pain] happens without cause in a lot of cases.” This is why I > > > > added possible other causes that may be overlooked. And, the notion of > > > > “inherent back pain” itself is suspect and was another cause for me to > > > > add possible unexamined causes. > > > > > Now I do admit that I am generally ignorant when it comes to both > > > > evolution and any possible ‘inherent back pain’. Perhaps you supported > > > > your claim earlier. Perhaps you defined your terms earlier. If so, I > > > > clearly missed it. > > > > > So…even now when you say “…that humans have a particularly common > > > > problem with back > > > > pain as a result of our recent change to walking on our hind legs, and > > > > this is true.”, it would appear that one must either already know this > > > > ‘truth’ or blindly accept it as fact. So far, I do neither. > > > > > On Jul 21, 12:56 pm, GarrieMushet <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > It's not really relevant because it doesn't refute, support or amend > > > > > my point. > > > > > > Evolution did us a good turn by providing us with pain in general. It > > > > > did give us a cue to alter the way we were doing things, or a warning > > > > > not to do certain things again. Yes, pain that you experience in your > > > > > back included in this, and yes, back pain can be an indication that we > > > > > are to do things differently, or not do certain things again. But > > > > > evolution has not done us a good turn with regards to the switch to > > > > > walking on our hind legs as rapidly as we did, as that has caused a > > > > > physiological problem which results in inherent back problems and > > > > > chronic pain. This pain is not an indication that we need to do things > > > > > differently, or avoid certain things. It is pain that has resulted > > > > > from too rapid a change in our walking practieces coupled with a not- > > > > > rapid-enough change in our physiology to cope with it. > > > > > > Not all back pain is a result of this, and I never said it was. I > > > > > simply said that humans have a particularly common problem with back > > > > > pain as a result of our recent change to walking on our hind legs, and > > > > > this is true. > > > > > > On Jul 21, 8:20 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > “…We cannot learn not to do something by having inherent > > > > > > physiological > > > > > > back pain. That happens without cause in a lot of cases.” – GM > > > > > > > As to the last part of your sentence, I intentionally left it off. > > > > > > What I am suggesting is that many cases of back pain, although > > > > > > appearing to be ‘inherent’, need not be. A few examples would > > > > > > include > > > > > > back pain that turns out to be kidney pain…sometimes merely due to > > > > > > inadequate amounts of liquid intake. Also, mere tension and/or poor > > > > > > posture can cause back pain. The pain in this case can tell us that > > > > > > we > > > > > > need to relax and/or carry ourselves differently. Also, without > > > > > > going > > > > > > into detail, other medical modalities identify numerous different > > > > > > causes/treatments and cures for back pains than the western AMA > > > > > > model. > > > > > > > In all cases, “we” have much to learn about this topic. > > > > > > > On Jul 21, 2:16 am, GarrieMushet <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Please, don't omit the end of the sentence, which I feel is all > > > > > > > important. > > > > > > > > We have nothing to learn from having chronic back pain other than > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > we should perhaps have evolved more gradually to be animals which > > > > > > > walk > > > > > > > on its hind legs<b> - and that's not a lesson for us.</b> > > > > > > > > It's not a lesson for us, because it was not 'us' who consciously > > > > > > > decided that we would walk on our hind legs and abandon our front > > > > > > > paws. It wasn't even our ancestors. Nobody consciously decided > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > this should happen, so it is not a lesson for anyone to learn. > > > > > > > > I was refuting the point that all pain acts as a warning for us to > > > > > > > learn not to do something again. To teach us a lesson about > > > > > > > touching > > > > > > > fire, etc. I was saying that, yes, situational pain such as being > > > > > > > burnt by touching fire serves the purposes of teaching us not to > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > such things. But chronic physiological pain does not 'teach' us > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > lessons. We cannot learn not to do something by having inherent > > > > > > > physiological back pain. That happens without cause in a lot of > > > > > > > cases. > > > > > > > > On Jul 21, 12:27 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > “…We have nothing to learn from having chronic back pain other > > > > > > > > than > > > > > > > > that we should perhaps have evolved more gradually to be > > > > > > > > animals which > > > > > > > > walk on its hind legs…” – GM > > > > > > > > > This is quite a sweeping commentary Garrie. I would posit that > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > ‘we’ you suggest here have much to learn about this specific > > > > > > > > topic. > > > > > > > > > On Jul 20, 11:35 am, GarrieMushet <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Situational pain is an evolutionary benefit, but chronic > > > > > > > > > phsyiological > > > > > > > > > pain as the result of our particular course of evolution is > > > > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > > We have nothing to learn from having chronic back pain other > > > > > > > > > than that > > > > > > > > > we should perhaps have evolved more gradually to be animals > > > > > > > > > which walk > > > > > > > > > on its hind legs - and that's not a lesson for us. > > > > > > > > > > A comparison to things like back pain is within the species > > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > > Cheetah. Cheetah's have had to evolve rather quickly to > > > > > > > > > account for > > > > > > > > > the increasing speed of their prey. Their physiology, > > > > > > > > > however, is > > > > > > > > > having a hard time compensating for these changes, and as > > > > > > > > > such, the > > > > > > > > > modern cheetah has very chronic inherent problems with its > > > > > > > > > limbs. This > > > > > > > > > is largely the reason why the modern cheetah is near > > > > > > > > > extinction. That > > > > > > > > > kind of pain and suffering simply isn't beneficial to the > > > > > > > > > species. > > > > > > > > > Situational pain and suffering is, I grant you. But that's > > > > > > > > > not what > > > > > > > > > we're discussion when we talk about the things I was talking > > > > > > > > > about. > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 20, 4:27 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > "Natural selection has no inclination to remove the > > > > > > > > > > > > characteristics which cause us great pain and discomfort. > > > > > > > > > > > Natural > > > > > > > > > > > selection doesn't care if we live or die. " and while > > > > > > > > > > > careful to not > > > > > > > > > > > be interpreted as asserting the opposite again I claim: > > > > > > > > > > > Facts not in > > > > > > > > > > > evidence. You just don't know. > > > > > > > > > > > I missed this quote in the original so I might be taking it > > > > > > > > > > out of > > > > > > > > > > context but our vulnerabilities to pain and discomfort are > > > > > > > > > > absolutely > > > > > > > > > > a survival benefit. We learn what not to do and how to be > > > > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > > careful by learning what causes us pain. Some people with > > > > > > > > > > rare > > > > > > > > > > conditions don't experience pain and have to be very, very > > > > > > > > > > careful to > > > > > > > > > > avoid injury. Lepers come to mind. Various neurological > > > > > > > > > > disorders > > > > > > > > > > that might cause insensitivity to pain are very dangerous. > > > > > > > > > > > djOn Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 3:36 AM, > > > > > > > > > > Justintruth<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems like a ridiculous argument to me. With regard to > > > > > > > > > > > "After all, > > > > > > > > > > > sleeping for 8 hours a day only makes us vulnerably for 1 > > > > > > > > > > > third of our lives.." > > > > > > > > > > > > First, it seems that by sleeping we stop moving around. > > > > > > > > > > > To a nocturnal > > > > > > > > > > > predator we might be MORE vulnerable at night if we > > > > > > > > > > > stayed awake and > > > > > > > > > > > thrashed around > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
