On 24 May, 15:44, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > I see your point, although all of the people that I know that consider > themselves of the Baha'i faith are good, gentle, loving people. To > that end, I would say he was successful. >
True. It's just that there are certain(!) variances between the Baha'i view and Islam that are difficult, if not impossible to rectify. The main one being that Baha'i believe in 'Progressive Revelation' (much the same as 'Conservative/Masorti Jews'), yet the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was 'The Seal of the Prophets' and, in the Qur'an, God says there are no further "revelations" forthcoming. So, there's a bit of a problem. By no means, of course, does this mean that the individual followers aren't good people. It just means that there an inherent inconsistency between Islam and the religion (Baha'i) that purports to be the next step, in that Islam states clearly that no next step will occur. Although Islam does NOT prevent modern interpretation in light of scientific discoveries, which is what I will use. The Islamic concept if "Ijtihad" (meaning: interpretation. It was interpretation of the Qur'an that led the scholars to the formation of Shari'a.) is the only way of making real progress within Islam and, of course, the scholars of old supposedly closed the "Gates of Ijtihad" years ago. I will attack that theory with clear logic. Here's my argument: If the Gates of Ijtihad were closed by God, then no man could open them, otherwise that man is more powerful than God. Likewise, if the Gates of Ijtihad were opened by God, no man could close them for the same reason. So, history states clearly that, at some time in the past, the Gates of Ijtihad were open. That leaves the question: Were they opened by a man or by God? If by God, then no man can close them, if by a man, and they were later closed by a man, then a man can re-open them. And I think that's pretty tight. > On May 24, 9:55 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On 24 May, 14:21, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I have not read this, and lots of other stuff. My reading has become > > > quite narrow in scope, but that may change again in my life. I now > > > read what comes to me that has a ring of truth to me, and it always > > > validates my latest realizations. Quite a wonderful process, really. > > > I would some day like to get back to literature...so much of it is > > > beautiful. So little time, so much to read...that is, if you include > > > time in your reality... > > > Well, it's not so much as to whether or not I include it, it's whether > > or not it is actually included. It is. Otherwise, you could read > > this before I wrote it. Only the One that has access to all time at > > once can do that. And, thus, knew, millenia ago, that this little > > post was a vital part of the whole. I wouldn't bother reading "The > > Book of Certitude". It was/is, more or less, an attempt from a person > > raised within Shi'a Islam, to make the claim of being the return of > > the Hidden (12th) Imam in a very subtle way, i.e., do everything but > > actually state it. Unfortunately, the book, when contrasted to the > > clarity of The Qur'an, is a mishmash of ideas that are NOT internally > > consistent and, thus, do not add clarity or certitude but, rather, > > detract from the Qur'an that it was intending to comment upon. It's > > an attempt to sway both Christians and Muslims into accepting the > > author's 'way forward', wich, although admirable, the way outlined is > > too muddled to see, in my opinion. In short, it was another attempt > > to be 'the Gospel of the Next Messiah' written before said Messiah > > claimed the title. Whilst there ARE followers, the majority of the > > population of the planet have never heard of Baha'i or Baha'ullah. > > Therefore, I don't think he was a very successful Messiah. He > > certainly never rebuilt any Jewish temple nor intended to; what sort > > of Messiah is THAT? ;-) > > > > On May 24, 7:22 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On 23 May, 20:03, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > perhaps with a focus like the B'hai, that brings the individual to > > > > > becoming rather than possessing as the basis of the social contract, > > > > > it may some day come about. > > > > > Perhaps, but have you read their "Book of Certitude"? I have, and > > > > there is more uncertainty in it than any other 'scripture' I've read. > > > > I'm sure, like most people, they mean well, but the faith itself is > > > > ill-founded although well-intentioned. And the Book of Certitude is > > > > confounding. I find it difficult to believe that anyone would accept > > > > it AS a scirpture; but then, hey, it's better than David Koresh...of > > > > THAT, I'm sure. > > > > > > On May 23, 1:59 pm, DarkwaterBlight <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Quite a tall order OneCell, I think that is pointing in the right > > > > > > direction but I highly doubt that the powers can/will be able to > > > > > > agree > > > > > > on much other than we need to save the planet in order to save > > > > > > ourselves!LOL!Surely this statement reflects self intrest as well! > > > > > > > On May 22, 11:34 am, 1CellOfMany <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > In response to your question,archytas, here is a direct quote > > > > > > > from the > > > > > > > article: > > > > > > > "Ultimately, the transformation required to shift towards > > > > > > > sustainable > > > > > > > consumption and production will entail no less than an organic > > > > > > > change > > > > > > > in the structure of society itself so as to reflect fully the > > > > > > > interdependence of the entire social body—as well as the > > > > > > > interconnectedness with the natural world that sustains it. Among > > > > > > > these changes, many of which are already the focus of considerable > > > > > > > public discourse, are: the consciousness of world citizenship; the > > > > > > > eventual federation of all nations through an integrated system of > > > > > > > governance with capacity for global decision-making; the > > > > > > > establishment > > > > > > > of structures which recognize humanity’s common ownership of the > > > > > > > earth’s resources; the establishment of full equality between men > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > women; the elimination of all forms of prejudice; the > > > > > > > establishment of > > > > > > > a universal currency and other integrating mechanisms that promote > > > > > > > global economic justice; the adoption of an international > > > > > > > auxiliary > > > > > > > language to facilitate mutual understanding; and the redirection > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > massive military expenditures towards constructive social > > > > > > > ends[iv]." > > > > > > > > On May 21, 9:19 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > The majority seem scared of anything like this Onecell. > > > > > > > > Peoples like > > > > > > > > the Amish still live under wider protection, and the B'hai are > > > > > > > > persecuted in Iran. How do we protect our sustainable > > > > > > > > communities > > > > > > > > from bandits and mad, violent religionists? > > > > > > > > > On 21 May, 21:48, 1CellOfMany <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Here is a different perspective on Prosperity. The article > > > > > > > > > below was > > > > > > > > > copied from the Baha'i News > > > > > > > > > Service:http://news.bahai.org/story/770 > > > > > > > > > > A new statement challenging the common assumption that human > > > > > > > > > beings > > > > > > > > > are slaves to self-interest and consumerism has been issued > > > > > > > > > by the > > > > > > > > > Baha'i International Community. > > > > > > > > > > A more profound look at human nature would reveal the ability > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > respond to a higher calling, suggests the document – issued > > > > > > > > > this week > > > > > > > > > for the United Nations Commission on Sustainable Development > > > > > > > > > as it > > > > > > > > > began its annual two-week session. > > > > > > > > > > "The culture of consumerism ... has tended to reduce human > > > > > > > > > beings to > > > > > > > > > competitive, insatiable consumers of goods and to objects of > > > > > > > > > manipulation by the market," it says. > > > > > > > > > > In fact, "the human experience is essentially spiritual in > > > > > > > > > nature: it > > > > > > > > > is rooted in the inner reality – or what some call the 'soul' > > > > > > > > > – that > > > > > > > > > we all share in common," it states. > > > > > > > > > > The document, titled "Rethinking Prosperity: Forging > > > > > > > > > Alternatives to a > > > > > > > > > Culture of Consumerism," challenges the view that there is an > > > > > > > > > intractable conflict between what people want – which > > > > > > > > > supposedly is to > > > > > > > > > consume more – and what humanity needs. > > > > > > > > > > "Much of economic and psychological theory depicts human > > > > > > > > > beings as > > > > > > > > > slaves to self-interest," it says. "The faculties needed to > > > > > > > > > construct > > > > > > > > > a more just and sustainable social order – moderation, > > > > > > > > > justice, love, > > > > > > > > > reason, sacrifice and service to the common good – have too > > > > > > > > > often been > > > > > > > > > dismissed as naive ideals. Yet, it is these and related > > > > > > > > > qualities that > > > > > > > > > must be harnessed. ..." > > > > > > > > > > Peter Adriance, a member of the Baha'i International > > > > > > > > > Community's > > > > > > > > > delegation to the Commission, said the statement is a > > > > > > > > > contribution to > > > > > > > > > a dialogue on the development of a 10-year framework to > > > > > > > > > encourage new > > > > > > > > > programs that advance sustainable consumption and production. > > > > > > > > > > "The document deals with the issue of consumerism by > > > > > > > > > reflecting on the > > > > > > > > > question of what is human nature," he said. "We must look at > > > > > > > > > who we > > > > > > > > > are and what our purpose in life is. > > > > > > > > > > "The transition to sustainable consumption and production is > > > > > > > > > one of > > > > > > > > > the great challenges of our times, and to achieve it will > > > > > > > > > require a > > > > > > > > > transformation in both thought and action. The cultural > > > > > > > > > forces at play > > > > > > > > > are powerful and demand re-examination if we are to move > > > > > > > > > forward," he > > > > > > > > > said. > > > > > > > > > > The statement can be read > > > > > > > > > athttp://bic.org/statements-and-reports/bic-statements/10-0503.htm.-Hid... > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
