" I think this is an important thread, Vam." It could be, Molly, but is not yet. In a sense, we all have ' arrived at ' ideas and values, whatever that might be. That per se may not thwart having a dialogue amongst us. What would is this inability to ensure or readiness to correct so that our ideas and values include all, here and now, and not in some future that ' history ' will unfold, even if there are people who are not even aware of those same ideas and values, much less subscribe.
To be true, honest dialogues and true discussions are rarely possible, anywhere at any age. Because what we espouse, seek to advance and are protective about, excludes the others, even if they profess to speak ' in the name of the people.' On an immediate level, dialogue with some individuals becomes impossible because they can brook no disagreement, or because they find you disagreeable. That's pretty straight forward and happens all the time, a mere fact of life. But Humpty Dumpty and Alice can still have a dialogue, with a simple query : so, what do YOU mean when you use the term ' capitalism ?' So long as the two are ready to include each other in their understanding. A discussion would be impossible if that readiness to include were not there. For instance, it's when either of them are unmindful of huge populations that the system does not serve and, in fact, marginalise, with just the Hegelian trust in history for them, for now, that the dialogue would become impossible. It is this readiness to include each other in our understanding that makes discussions and dialogues possible, despite cultural and perspectival diversity, past disagreements and disagreeability. On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > Wonderful quote, Francis. Alice's bigger viewpoint of the Logos of > the words we use may be lost on Humpty Dumpty in his need to express > authority through "mastery", of words, identity of view, and > reluctance to consider another meaning. This may indeed be the crux > of the barriers to communication on the topic of capitalism or any > other, as " people began ' arriving ' at their fixed and > hardened perspectives, views or values. Which makes an open > conversation impossible, for there is mere reiteration of known > positions" > > By Logos, I mean the traditional sense of the word, the "meaning that > passes between you and me," which takes into account connotation, > denotation, linguistics and semantics. These are the processes > fleshed out in honest and open dialogue. Groups often get stuck in > defining terms. Anyone entering the dialogue with an ax to grind, a > need to be right or feel injured, stops dialogue and keeps the group > stuck in argument (or outright abuse), and there are thousands if not > millions of places in cyberspace ready to engage on this level. > Violent language, fallacious arguments, cynical humor and personal > attacks are all barriers to communication, often by design if a person > in the group is more interested in talking only about themselves or > what they make the words mean as masters of them. But we all know the > story of Humpty Dumpty. > > Dialogue takes a knowledge of other group members and respect for > differences in language and culture before semantic differences can be > flushed out, and common understanding of terms agreed upon. Then, > different viewpoints can be expressed and appreciated. There are then > those wonderful moments when we can experience our own viewpoints > expanding, as the meaning that passes between you and I gains > dimensionality. > > I think this is an important thread, Vam. Thanks for starting it. > > On Sep 5, 5:37 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > Like many terms used in public discourse, Ashok/Vam, sometimes the > > only answer is that given by Humpty Dumpty :-): > > > > "`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, > > `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' > > > > `The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so > > many different things.' > > > > `The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- > > that's all.'" > > > > http://www.sabian.org/Alice/lgchap06.htm > > > > Francis > > > > On Sep 4, 5:17 pm, ashok tewari <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > little time ? ! ... indeed. > > > > > But that's not the issue I'd highlighted, Fran. It was about " what > *people > > > mean when they use the term* ' capitalism.' " Not how it means in Das > > > Kapital. > > > > > On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 7:25 PM, frantheman < > [email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > Well, if anyone's got a little time on their hands, here's an > > > > introduction to the subject of capitalism :-) > > > > > >http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Das_Kapital > > > > > > Francis > > > > > > On Sep 3, 7:56 pm, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I do sense an aspect of timelessness in the platform, on which > people > > > > > with fundamental questions or doubts met and discoursed to clarify. > > > > > > > What happened was people began ' arriving ' at their fixed and > > > > > hardened perspectives, views or values. Which makes an open > > > > > conversation impossible, for there is mere reiteration of known > > > > > positions. Like, it would be disappointing if we came to clear the > > > > > ground and found it littered with buildings of all sorts, including > > > > > those one may disagree with or dislike. > > > > > > > I believe the developments take nothing away from the timelessness > of > > > > > ME. But we need to go back to discussing fundamental issues, > aspects > > > > > or terms. For instances, I am till date intrigued by what people > mean > > > > > when they use the term ' capitalism.' Ideally, the user should be > able > > > > > to enlighten us with all ideate dimensions to the term - practice, > > > > > structure, economic values system, moral values, ethical values, > and > > > > > way - of - life beliefs and philosophy. > > > > > > > The discussion would of course veer to alternate systems and > > > > > philosophies ... and so on. The participants definitely make their > own > > > > > informed or cultural choices along the way. Life itself clarifies > the > > > > > rest of the way. And perhaps the discourse gets upgraded ... > > > > > sometime ... if there are enough interested members to infuse life > !! > > > > > -- > > > ASHOK TEWARI -- ASHOK TEWARI
