That is a very valid point Allan On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 3:43 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
> The real points are: > 1. People need to understand what these trillions represent in terms > they can grok. > 2. That the bonuses and bailouts are down to a system of crime for the > rich that prevents investment in jobs and wages and a decent, > sustainable way of living. > > On Sep 9, 4:03 am, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > These are the precise facts the ' people ' need to wake up to... come > > together in huge numbers and make the MPs n Govt respond, as in admit > > investigation and the faults, and implement people-system- > > institutional solutions. > > > > I am in some hurry. Shall be back later. But I do recall discussing an > > international forum in this group some years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > archytas wrote: > > > And that makes the sum much more interesting Vam. Our American > > > cousins are thus paying $1460 each per year to support their rich > > > bankers plus all the other bail out. If we say the average household > > > has 5 people then each pays $7330 a year in 'bankster aid'. They > > > don't seem to know do they? Or you'd expect such an obvious error to > > > have been pounced on? > > > > > When it comes to the losses being hidden, the western public know even > > > less. My council tax (taxes for local services) is about $1400 a year > > > - we pay per household - so the amount is hardly insubstantial. Asked > > > to pay this money in tax the Americans would rebel. They presumably > > > haven't got a grok. > > > > > I for one think it much more sensible to hand over money for police, > > > hospitals, schools, waste collection, libraries and so on than to a > > > bunch of crooked bankers. My suspicions were first raised after I > > > left the MOD where I'd been investigating government fraud. I > > > couldn't understand how banks kept lending money to countries known to > > > be run by kleptocrats, and how they could stand the losses. I started > > > looking at 'capital flight' as an academic, finding my efforts blocked > > > at almost every turn. I also knew productivity was rising 5% year on > > > year and yet wages were in decline. And I could see debt rising year > > > on year. These 'debts' were on a lot of balance sheets as 'assets'. > > > I gave up when I realised I needed a cop's authority to get the > > > information needed on money flows. I was reminded of the days when > > > crooks laundered money through casinos. And I noticed those I'd know > > > as crooks were buying up assets in the same places as the rich and > > > that they were all part of an economy with no visible means of > > > support. > > > > > On Sep 8, 7:55 pm, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > "... A billion is 10 to the power of 6. A trillion is 10 to the > power > > > > of 9. So the sum is .733 times a 1000." > > > > > > This is wrong arithmetic. > > > > > > 1 billion = 10 to the power 9 > > > > 1 trillion = 10 to the power 12 > > > > > > That is 2.2 trillion = 2.2 million million > divided by 300 million = > > > > (2.2 /300) million = (2.2/3) * 10,000 = $7330 > > > > > > archytas wrote: > > > > > The amount of money paid to bankers by themselves over the last > five > > > > > years is $2.2 trillion. Now wouldn't that be a handy sum to pay > down > > > > > the deficit? When Tea Party smucks talk about tax they don't > include > > > > > anything like this. This is payment for making losses, running at > > > > > 2.2. trillion divided by 300 million per US citizen. > > > > > About $733 per capita. This just on what they claim as earnings > from > > > > > loss making we have to cover. $146 per person a year. > > > > > > > The $2.2 trillion is publicly quoted. I feel I must have the sum > > > > > wrong. Incidentally, the banksters are lobbying for a law to keep > > > > > their earnings secret. Have I got the noughts wrong? I'm assuming > a > > > > > billion at a thousand million, and a trillion at a thousand > billion. > > > > > > > 2.2 divided by three is about .733. A billion is 10 to the power > of > > > > > 6. A trillion is 10 to the power of 9. So the sum is .733 times a > > > > > 1000. > > > > > > > In the UK this would be a fifth of my local taxes per year (I don't > > > > > have the bankster figures for the UK).- this pays for a load of > > > > > policing, education, waste collection, road work and so on, though > > > > > would pay for only 3 nights in the pub a year. I have no idea what > I > > > > > get back for this bankster tax - and it seems as though this is > just > > > > > a system I don't use much and a pile of their debts. > > > > > > > The real sum could be spreadsheeted to demonstrate whether > bankstering > > > > > actually provides me with a net gain or loss and we should have > such a > > > > > spreadsheet available for public scrutiny. I can say, qua > economist, > > > > > that this is a complex task, but doable. Getting the real amounts > of > > > > > bonus and losses tp put in remains difficult - but we should be > able > > > > > to assess the rich as a tax on the rest of us. > > > > > > > I only drop the above 'sum' in as an exemplar - the proper equation > > > > > would be complicated - but that bit would be easier than getting > the > > > > > simple amounts that should be available to work with. The > spreadsheet > > > > > could be built without the figures and in a democracy we should > have > > > > > this. > > > > > > > On Sep 8, 12:03 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Brilliant little video Gabby. These days it looks like a > descriptor > > > > > > of what's happened to us all. > > > > > > > > One thing going on amongst the trillions is a variation on old > > > > > > insurance rackets in which the insurer is nowhere to be found > when a > > > > > > claim is put in. This involves packaging an selling dud > investments > > > > > > that will fail and placing insurance several times over on the > > > > > > failure. In the old days one might buy some expensive cargo, put > that > > > > > > in a sound ship but claim it went in one lacking tar that gets > sunk > > > > > > with all hands, thus getting the insurance and profit on the real > > > > > > journey. If one thinks of carousel fraud where villains get paid > by > > > > > > tax authorities it's hard to believe banks have much clue on > > > > > > security. The question is where all the toxic assets end up and > what > > > > > > they total up to. AIG was an obvious answer, but we seem > unwilling to > > > > > > investigate the full nature of the scam/s. > > > > > > > > On Sep 5, 5:08 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > “…John Maynard Keynes said of it: "In my opinion it is a grand > > > > > > > book...Morally and philosophically I find myself in agreement > with > > > > > > > virtually the whole of it: and not only in agreement with it, > but in > > > > > > > deeply moved agreement." Having said that, Keynes did not think > > > > > > > Hayek's philosophy was of practical use; this was explained > later in > > > > > > > the same letter, through the following comment: "What we need > > > > > > > therefore, in my opinion, is not a change in our economic > programmes, > > > > > > > which would only lead in practice to disillusion with the > results of > > > > > > > your philosophy; but perhaps even the contrary, namely, an > enlargement > > > > > > > of them. Your greatest danger is the probable practical failure > of the > > > > > > > application of your philosophy in the United States." George > Orwell > > > > > > > responded with both praise and criticism, stating, "in the > negative > > > > > > > part of Professor Hayek's thesis there is a great deal of > truth. It > > > > > > > cannot be said too often — at any rate, it is not being said > nearly > > > > > > > often enough — that collectivism is not inherently democratic, > but, on > > > > > > > the contrary, gives to a tyrannical minority such powers as the > > > > > > > Spanish Inquisitors never dreamt of." Yet he also warned, "[A] > return > > > > > > > to 'free' competition means for the great mass of people a > tyranny > > > > > > > probably worse, because more irresponsible, than that of the > state." > > > > > > > …” - > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom#Contemporary_commentary > > > > > > > “…In his review (collected in The Present as History, 1953) > Marxist > > > > > > > economist Paul Sweezy joked that Hayek would have you believe > that if > > > > > > > there was an over-production of baby carriages, the central > planners > > > > > > > would then order the population to have more babies instead of > simply > > > > > > > warehousing the temporary excess of carriages and decreasing > > > > > > > production for next year. The cybernetic arguments of Stafford > Beer in > > > > > > > his 1974 CBC Massey Lectures, Designing Freedom—that > intelligent > > > > > > > adaptive planning can increase freedom—are of interest in this > regard, > > > > > > > as is the technical work of Herbert Simon and Albert Ando on > the > > > > > > > dynamics of hierarchical nearly decomposable systems in > economics— > > > > > > > namely, that everything in such a system is not tightly coupled > to > > > > > > > everything else.…” > > > > > > > “…More recently, Hayek's support of free market institutions > has been > > > > > > > challenged on a new front: the free market economy that he > advocated > > > > > > > is designed for an infinite planet, says Eric Zencey in "The > Other > > > > > > > Road to Serfdom," and when it runs into physical limits (as any > > > > > > > growing system must), the result is a need for centralized > planning to > > > > > > > mediate the problematic interface of economy and nature. > "Planning is > > > > > > > planning, whether it's done to minimize poverty and injustice, > as > > > > > > > socialists were advocating then, or to preserve the minimum > flow of > > > > > > > ecosystem services that civilization requires, as we are > finding > > > > > > > increasingly necessary today."..." - > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom#Criticism > > > > > > > > > More. - > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_to_Serfdom#Libertarian.2FConser... > > > > > > > > > It is refreshing to see propaganda in such a nice and > assimilatable > > > > > > > package! Cartoons can give us a world which appears to be > reality > > > > > > > without any of the restraints thereof. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nEgjwfX6s8http://www.youtube.com/watc... > > > > > > > > > Yes, any particular ideology one wishes to espouse can be put > to film > > > > > > > and promulgated. And this is a serious topic. In any analysis > some set > > > > > > > of assumptions are made. Here, one might make human life a need > and > > > > > > > place it high on the > > > > ... > > > > read more » -- ( ) |_D Allan live is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
