The best example of human cooperation is a symphony orchestra! :-)
On Sep 21, 4:21 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > Heh James rose tinted glasses, well I don't really know you so you'll > excuse me if I do not make that call right now. Hahhah or perhaps the > oposite is true of me? Can it be that I view the world through shit > tinted glasses? > > It could be, but honestly I may come off as that kind of human, but I > am in fact quite the glass is half full kinda bloke. > > Yes most of us would bend over backwards to help our family and > friends, how many of us regulary give to charities though, or how many > of us would step in to stop an other human being attacked in the > street? > > As I say we for the most part very sheep like, we follow gladly, now > then we need strong moral leadership. Find that man or woman, and the > rest will I belive flow more easily. > > Hahah yes how to phrase it without appearing to be full of my own self > importance? > > The standard cry of the intelecual human, people are largly idiots, or > rather we seem to contain amongst us a small percantage of those > propered to really think about things. Ho hum and the world turns. > > On Sep 21, 5:13 am, James Lynch <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 4:25 AM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > Not even that James, merely an example of how people differ and how > > > ideas differ and even how peoples perception of the same ideas differ. > > > > Let us take it right back. > > > > You said: > > > > 'I believe in cradle to the grave social securities, and that is > > > something that should be on offer. People will work for these things, > > > make sacrifices, and likely be happy about it if they have a sense of > > > it helping to strengthen society. I think many people would work > > > harder and even be willing to work smarter if there were tangible > > > results, if that work pays into the social securities and societal > > > infrastructure and benefits the individual at the same time- what more > > > could one ask for?' > > > > My reply was saying no I do not belive that people will work for these > > > things, make sacrifices or likely be happy about it. I meantion our > > > history of how communisim has worked or failed to over the last 70 odd > > > years as an example of both the priciples you mention, and the way in > > > which humanity approaches them. > > > > It is clear that many people will not work harder or make sacrifices > > > even for the betterment of the whole of humanity. > > > With everything we know about human nature, the need for companionship > > and purpose, the need to connect and share valuable and intimate > > relationships I am amazed at this. Most of what I know about healthy > > people tells me that they would suffer massive hardships for their > > loved ones, willingly and with pride, a testament of strength. Less so > > for the average stranger, perhaps, but not necessarily. I think that > > what you describe is a sign of social disease, complicit to usury, > > greed, selfishness and delusion of fulfillment- like drunkards all. It > > just seems there is much that could be done if we chose to do it > > intelligently, we could build a better human existence and be rewarded > > with meaningful existence. Some do, we should learn from them. > > > Hope it doesn't sound like I have rose colored glasses Lee, the world > > I've known is anything but. > > > > You go on to say: > > > > 'Well the more I think about this the less it sounds reasonable to > > > assume that given the viable choice and reason to believe it wasn't a > > > catch 22 that anyone capable of doing anything would choose a life of > > > scraps over anything productive' > > > > While this is I guess a reasonable assumption to make, again the > > > reality of our history of Communism shows that people can, will and > > > do, if not choose scraps, at least be quite content with them rather > > > than help out their fellow man. > > > > Ultimatly we are and odd species, rather more sheep like than wolf > > > like. From my British eyes I can only look on astunded at the > > > shenanigans of the Conservative Christians in the USA. Stuff that > > > really shouldn't be happening or that perhaps would have ellicted a > > > vaster outcry from the public 20 years ago. I can see how modern > > > history has brought us to such a place, and I sorta understand how > > > people are so easily lead on what to think and who to blame. Stronger > > > leadership, strong moral ideas are what we need, but we can't expect > > > the whole of humanity to help or even agree, and this exactly the > > > thing. > > > I think people are mostly ignorant of what we are capable of, and how > > fulfilling simple things can be, even necessary. Strong leadership and > > morality I consider innate, but diminished in society. Turning this > > topic into a feasible plan/solution would be quite a challenge- but, > > isn't that what exemplars are doing? Not taxiing us to paradise but > > helping to chart the terrain of mental transmutation (so to speak). > > > > On Sep 19, 8:05 pm, James Lynch <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > > >> wrote: > > >> > Heh okay I can see you didn't get my point. > > > >> > I only mention the C word (Communisim) as an example of my words > > >> > privious to uttering it. > > > >> Thanks for keeping true to it then Lee, I'll try to dig deeper. :) I > > >> take it you don't mean that Communism is the best example of a society > > >> geared toward the objectives I am proposing, nor that it is the only > > >> means to those ends. Should I take your meaning to be that Communism > > >> is a system undertaken to such social ends and proves people would > > >> rather sponge? I could agree with that perhaps, but I do not agree > > >> that people who are raised and a society that is built around > > >> effective means to promote those ends would necessarily look anything > > >> like what Communism has over the last 70 years. I may still be missing > > >> your point, if so please hit me with the blunt end of it. :D > > > >> > On Sep 19, 4:39 pm, James Lynch <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 4:37 AM, Lee Douglas > > >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> > Heh James it is not hard to imagine what you see as unreasonable to > > >> >> > be > > >> >> > the reality of the situation. As I said in my last post, let us > > >> >> > look > > >> >> > at how Communisim has worked or not for us over the last 70 years or > > >> >> > so. > > > >> >> Political ideology may be convenient for discourse on political theory > > >> >> but when it comes to solving social challenges I think it is ill > > >> >> equipped compared to, say, child psychology. Sure, communism sounds > > >> >> great on paper, but I think it is especially prone to corruption- who > > >> >> can be trusted with such power, it might be workable under a strong > > >> >> anarcho-syndicalistic population to keep it in check but then it > > >> >> wouldn't be Communism and lacking a large scale defense > > >> >> command&control infrastructure would be vulnerable to corruption and > > >> >> conquest from within and out. Sounds kinda pie-in-the-sky for today's > > >> >> world. > > > >> >> > The problem is that we are all differant, what may seem sensable to > > >> >> > some will not seem so to others. > > > >> >> Granted, this does not establish whichever negative effects are the > > >> >> result of social systems that encourage the 'sponging' behavior. What > > >> >> I am trying to identify is the context of humanity, the variables that > > >> >> encourage beneficial and desirable behaviors and also under what > > >> >> circumstances the negatives emerge so that they can be minimized. > > > >> >> > What is you stance on the dealth penalty, as a view to an example of > > >> >> > how differantly we all think? > > > >> >> Hm, too expensive to pursue proper justice, ineffective deterrent, > > >> >> provides little gain to society at large. Bout sums it up for me. > > > >> >> For example one could argue beating kids and following the Bible > > >> >> examples is the only way to produce 'properly' behaved children, that > > >> >> doesn't fit with scientific knowledge on the subject of child rearing. > > >> >> I think there is helpful scientific knowledge on all these subjects > > >> >> you bring up and would like to see more of that in public discourse. > > >> >> As it stands progress is held to the beck and call of reaction-terms > > >> >> tossed at the public to produce reliable results (for the same people > > >> >> that aren't fixing things) rather than encouraging people to develop > > >> >> productive and intelligent discourse. > > > >> >> Considering the level of ignorance promulgated in our political > > >> >> debates I find it amazing our (US) democracy works to the degree it > > >> >> has. > > > >> >> > On Sep 16, 11:37 pm, James Lynch <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> Well the more I think about this the less it sounds reasonable to > > >> >> >> assume that given the viable choice and reason to believe it > > >> >> >> wasn't a > > >> >> >> catch 22 that anyone capable of doing anything would choose a life > > >> >> >> of > > >> >> >> scraps over anything productive. In that case chronic welfare > > >> >> >> should > > >> >> >> come hitched with therapy, mandatory, to identify those who could > > >> >> >> really use some more psychological attention and keep people from > > >> >> >> falling between the cracks. Some may, and that is one's right, but > > >> >> >> a > > >> >> >> goal of societal health should be to facilitate productive lives my > > >> >> >> any means possible. The costs to society are too great otherwise > > >> >> >> and > > >> >> >> there is a huge amount of work to be done. > > > >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Lee Douglas > > >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> > I do not belive all people would work for these things make > > >> >> >> > sacrifices > > >> >> >> > and be likely to be happy at all. > > > >> >> >> > We can see that so far Communism has not really worked. > > > >> >> >> > I agree that we must as a society look > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
