We might ask why democracy itself has taken advantage of third world countries yet presents itself in ideals. But the citizens also play a huge role- conspicuous consumption- that's nothing new, really. Watching Indian women chatter about their gold on "60 Minutes" and aware of the poverty and slums of India is an example. Leaders/the military have to present their actions in fuzzy terms. Weren't our oil problems to be solved by the Gulf War? Americans love their cars enough to start a war.//I think populations should stop congregating in super-cities and spread out again- if you build something to lure them, they will follow.
On Feb 15, 2:54 am, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > I too believe in democracy, the problem I see it is those that do not > believe in democracy and do everything in their power to take advantage of > it at the and make it an autocratic government where they (corporate or > wealth) control not only the government, food and water. The basics > needed for a stable life. > > As this group controls the wealth and military (including the USA) at this > point not much can be done, except maybe putting the correct labels on the > forms of governments. Most of the Governments have evolved into the > autocratic format. > > If this is true the real question is how do we eliminate autocratic > government. > Allan > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 7:30 AM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > I see you missed my cue in ... > > > "A very good question ! And, if not, what ?" > > > I believe in democracy, not because of the models so far touted or how > > it is in practice in a many countries, but because, unlike you and > > Plato, I believe in people and chaos, and I trust the future for the > > improvements waiting in its wings. > > > Perhaps, in the next 300 years... > > > On Feb 15, 3:26 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I rest my case on the grounds this house doesn't even have anyone > > > prepared to state they believe in democracy. > > > > On Feb 14, 5:55 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I wonder if there ever is national self-interest. India was a > > > > substantial cost to Britain in terms of taxes here, whilst the Nabobs > > > > made the loot. Apple is awash with offshore cash, benefiting from > > > > cheating on our quality of work life. Mao, in the biographies of > > > > those who knew him, was a highly self-interested monomaniacal mass > > > > murderer. > > > > > On Feb 14, 2:16 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > During the 18th C. the pattern was English goods to India, India > > > > > cotton to China and China tea to Britain. Tea was the most > > profitable. > > > > > The Opium War...Treaty of Nanking (1842) pretty much sealed China's > > > > > fate and it didn't modernize as quickly as Japan. The chapter is a > > > > > sorry tale- most are. Then there are the internal rebellions > > (Taiping) > > > > > which killed 20-30 million. Clumsy American policy- here and there. > > > > > Anyway, I am left with sympathy and respect for China. Again, it is > > > > > superior weapons and national self-interest that overwhelms- a broken > > > > > record. > > > > > > On Feb 13, 9:38 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > The idea of replacing democracy with something else is interesting > > Vam > > > > > > - but what would get to the heart of the ineducable demos problem > > > > > > without a vile and elitist aristocracy (as I suspect we have now)? > > > > > > You keep some junk rigsy! I play bridge on my PC. An autocrat, > > > > > > methinks you ain't. They lack humour and irony. At some point > > Gabby > > > > > > you have to be reflexive on whatever stings you to sting. Pretty > > much > > > > > > anything is up for attack as tyranny, from chronic political > > > > > > correctness to tolerance that tolerates everything. > > > > > > > I suspect out current situation is defined by a moment in 1906 > > (ish) > > > > > > when British, US, French, Russian and Japanese (built in UK) > > warships > > > > > > were queuing up at China's door to put down the Boxer revolt (done > > > > > > with extreme prejudice) and the Blue Book at the UK treasury listed > > > > > > heroin profits with no shame. Imperialism has merely shifted to a > > > > > > more US base, largely because the planned British, French and > > Russian > > > > > > "invasion" to support the Confederacy in 1861 didn't get financed > > > > > > (there were meetings in Berlin to divide the world). > > > > > > > My own view takes the main issue as providing systems in which no > > one > > > > > > lives in want. This is no simple matter and inevitably raises > > control > > > > > > issues, including population control and wealth distribution > > control. > > > > > > We have to do some conceptually with what we allow as bureaucracy > > and > > > > > > how we think of freedom and power. Those granted control have to > > be > > > > > > granted it in a manner that can be controlled by the rest of us. I > > > > > > suspect that to get to the rub of any of this requires we > > understand > > > > > > that this is a world of plenty ruined by much of what we currently > > > > > > do. A key component would be for leaders to be more randomly > > selected > > > > > > (from a qualified list) for temporary service and living ordinary > > > > > > lives for most of their span - thus being of the society they help > > > > > > create (Max Weber's 'iron cage of bureaucracy' helps a bit here as > > > > > > something to avoid). > > > > > > > A key behavioural component in need of debunking is 'identity > > > > > > conflated with world-view' - broadly people being so dumb they > > don't > > > > > > realise they have merely copied Idols rather than found > > > > > > individuality. We mimic thinking we have actually found something > > > > > > individual. This probably prevents us having a decently rational > > > > > > fellowship. Religion is a bete noir here and yet a possible > > > > > > solution. > > > > > > > On Feb 13, 2:38 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > No- to your last question- but it's tough sledding to be an > > autocrat. > > > > > > > I guess I am an independent conservative with senses of humor and > > > > > > > despair. By the way, you were right about attempts to modernize > > > > > > > Afghanistan in the 30's- which failed- so thank you. There was a > > good > > > > > > > article in my 1958 Enclyclopaedia Britannica which led to my > > moving > > > > > > > the furniture around in the den so I could get to the volumes > > along > > > > > > > with Ridpath's history volumes and then- sit down- I lugged up > > the old > > > > > > > Commodore 64 so I could play a bridge program, etc. having lost > > the > > > > > > > art of finesse along the way. > > > > > > > > On Feb 12, 11:04 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I don't believe in democracy as standardly dreamed up. The > > problem is > > > > > > > > an idiot demos. But my contention is that I believe in the > > rights of > > > > > > > > this demos more than most who claim to be democrats. Most > > situations > > > > > > > > in everyday life contain no true democracy - work being the > > classic. > > > > > > > > We rarely believe social groups can work without a chain of > > command. > > > > > > > > > There are alternatives to "strong leadership" (which gives us > > goons > > > > > > > > like Blair, Bush, Putin, hitler - etc. the list is almost > > endless) and > > > > > > > > the farce of the current GOP list. The Dutch polder system is > > an > > > > > > > > example. But we generally shy away from collective decision > > making as > > > > > > > > too slow. > > > > > > > > > Anti-democracy is built in to our systems. Think about our > > likely > > > > > > > > collective reluctance to pay me 90% of our resources if we had > > a > > > > > > > > business - yet we might not understand how those few doing > > such taking > > > > > > > > in the general economy take in the same way from us through > > ideology > > > > > > > > of the deserving rich. We would easily be able to vote > > against 'my > > > > > > > > 90%' - but how do we vote against Apple's sweatshops and cash > > held > > > > > > > > offshore? > > > > > > > > > Are you a democrat?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > -- > ( > ) > |_D Allan > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
