behave your self Allan On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 8:25 PM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > A better understanding of oneself and the world is a mark of > intelligence and not consciousness. A human can be said to be more > intelligent than the lessor life-forms as he has a better > understanding of the self , his emotions and how to control them. To > me there is no difference between the Self or the universal Soul or > God. > > On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 10:43 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> Then we are indeed using different definitions of the word. Yes there is a >> difference in intelligence between us and chimp, but also in consciousness. >> If I am conscious of a Self, that is apart and separate from others of my >> species, and a worm is not conscious of such a thing, is this a measure of >> consciousness or intelligence This is what I mean when I use the word and >> it is this I allude to when I say levels of consciousness. >> >> As to souls, well for me the jury is still out on whether such a thing >> exists at all, that is I do not equate the Self with the soul. >> >> >> On Thursday, 25 October 2012 16:51:08 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote: >>> >>> Lee , by consciousness I understand awareness of something like sound >>> , sight , etc., by evolution I understand the growth from simple >>> life-forms to complex life-forms. As for the difference between chimps >>> and humans is not that of consciousness but that of intelligence. You >>> are trying to say that your soul is more developed than that of chimps >>> or maybe a chimp is lacking of soul. The whole argument is about us >>> having individual souls which I do not agree with , I believe in a >>> universal Soul and the rest to be just dust. >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 6:11 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > Umm I'm not sure I agree with that either RP. What I mean by level of >>> > consciousness is rather things like, sense of Self, emotions, ability to >>> > use >>> > tools. If it helps lets us call it scale instead of level. I don't >>> > think >>> > that level of evolution is correct, not really. I think of evolution >>> > over >>> > time. We humans shared some 5-6 million years ago a common ancestor >>> > with >>> > chimps. If we humans have carried on evolving (and we have) and chimps >>> > have >>> > carried on evolving (as they have) then we share a level of evolution. >>> > We >>> > have both evolved over the same span of time from our common ancestor. >>> > >>> > I do agree though that, I shall use the term, 'Lesser order' animals are >>> > inferior to us, but that highlights my insistence on grouping by 'levels >>> > of >>> > consciousness . Is it true to say that chimp is at a lower level of >>> > consciousness as a human? Well I think it quite correct to suppose so. >>> > >>> > However remembering that all of this is in reply to your initial post, >>> > then >>> > it is clear that some of the creatures we share this planet with can be >>> > said >>> > to not be conscious at all. Does an Ameba have consciousness? But >>> > perhaps >>> > more importantly to this discussion, can a creature without >>> > consciousness be >>> > said to be a 'being'? >>> > >>> > Before I go let me just clarify why this phrase 'intensity of senses' >>> > makes >>> > no sense to me when it comes to consciousness. A falcon has far >>> > superior >>> > eyesight than a human, but according to how I have defined consciousness >>> > is >>> > clearly on a lower level than humans. >>> > >>> > Personally I don't think that searching for proof of God's existence is >>> > any >>> > good at all. You either believe such a thing IS or you do not, and that >>> > is >>> > good enough for me. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 18:06:20 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote: >>> >> >>> >> Lee , what you mean by level of consciousness is actually the level of >>> >> evolution , but that doesn't mean that the less evolved are in any >>> >> manner inferior to their highly evolved brethren --humans have the >>> >> concept of God but animals haven't and still all are equal in the eyes >>> >> of God even though He has made everyone in a different mold. It is >>> >> only if we see everyone with an eye of equality that we can be truly >>> >> compassionate towards all regardless of their position in the >>> >> evolutionary ladder. >>> >> >>> >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 10:02 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> >>> >> wrote: >>> >> > Heh you are the master of the non answer, are you a politician? >>> >> > >>> >> > I'm going to assume then that yes crows are conscious, and what you >>> >> > may >>> >> > call >>> >> > the level of intelligence, and the intensity of the sense also mean >>> >> > yes. >>> >> > Which makes your previous words contradictory. >>> >> > >>> >> > This phrase though, 'intensity of sense', makes no sense to me. What >>> >> > does >>> >> > it mean then for consciousness for those beings who have more intense >>> >> > senses? >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 17:26:41 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote: >>> >> >> >>> >> >> There is a matter of the intensity of the senses and the level of >>> >> >> intelligence , but , my friend , crows are beings and not machines - >>> >> >> ah , robots. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 9:48 PM, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> >>> >> >> wrote: >>> >> >> > Ahhhh RP! You don't change at all sir do you. >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > There are of course many, many people and soooo much literature >>> >> >> > that >>> >> >> > disagrees with your wishy washyness here. So much of it in fact >>> >> >> > that >>> >> >> > I >>> >> >> > don't even feel the need to defend my stance at all. So let me >>> >> >> > just >>> >> >> > finish >>> >> >> > by asking you two questions. >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > Are crows conscious? >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > Is a crows consciousness the same as a humans? >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 17:08:51 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote: >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> That which exist is Being , and consciousness does't have levels >>> >> >> >> but >>> >> >> >> parameters -- sound , sight , etc. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 8:45 PM, Lee Douglas >>> >> >> >> <[email protected]> >>> >> >> >> wrote: >>> >> >> >> > The we disagree again RP. Unless you and I have differing >>> >> >> >> > concepts >>> >> >> >> > on >>> >> >> >> > what >>> >> >> >> > consciousness is? My cats are conscious, would they have an >>> >> >> >> > understanding >>> >> >> >> > of God as a human does? I suspect not, but they are surely >>> >> >> >> > conscious >>> >> >> >> > creatures. It may be that I infer I am currently in discourse >>> >> >> >> > with >>> >> >> >> > another >>> >> >> >> > conscious entity, but I'd rather say it is empirically correct >>> >> >> >> > that I >>> >> >> >> > am >>> >> >> >> > doing so rather than it is an inference that I can make. After >>> >> >> >> > all >>> >> >> >> > are >>> >> >> >> > we >>> >> >> >> > not members of the same species? Without being too general, I >>> >> >> >> > think >>> >> >> >> > such >>> >> >> >> > inferences that I can make about myself as a human must also >>> >> >> >> > hold >>> >> >> >> > true >>> >> >> >> > for >>> >> >> >> > other humans. I must breathe to live, so can I infer that >>> >> >> >> > others >>> >> >> >> > of >>> >> >> >> > my >>> >> >> >> > species must also do the same, or can I claim knowledge that it >>> >> >> >> > is >>> >> >> >> > true? >>> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> > I get what you mean of course, I can ever only really say I >>> >> >> >> > think, >>> >> >> >> > therefore >>> >> >> >> > I am. However when an inference takes place day in and day >>> >> >> >> > out, I >>> >> >> >> > think >>> >> >> >> > it >>> >> >> >> > better to regard such 'truth' as knowledge. Thus I know you >>> >> >> >> > are >>> >> >> >> > conscious, >>> >> >> >> > as you are human, and I know I am conscious. My cats show all >>> >> >> >> > the >>> >> >> >> > signs >>> >> >> >> > of >>> >> >> >> > being conscious and indeed as you would expect of conscious >>> >> >> >> > beings. >>> >> >> >> > the >>> >> >> >> > both exhibit different attitudes and personalities. >>> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> > So once again we are back to the following two questions. What >>> >> >> >> > do >>> >> >> >> > you >>> >> >> >> > mean >>> >> >> >> > by 'being', and at what level of 'consciousness' does this >>> >> >> >> > proof >>> >> >> >> > of >>> >> >> >> > yours >>> >> >> >> > need to be, to be proof? >>> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> > On Wednesday, 24 October 2012 12:20:34 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote: >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> As far as a person is concerned , there is only one >>> >> >> >> >> consciousness >>> >> >> >> >> , >>> >> >> >> >> that is , his. Others are inferred, as also the existence of >>> >> >> >> >> god. >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 2:30 AM, Lee Douglas >>> >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> >>> >> >> >> >> wrote: >>> >> >> >> >> > Meh! I know plankton exist, is it conscious, or would you >>> >> >> >> >> > not >>> >> >> >> >> > call >>> >> >> >> >> > it >>> >> >> >> >> > a >>> >> >> >> >> > being? Or perhaps we can discuss levels of consciousness? >>> >> >> >> >> > Nope I >>> >> >> >> >> > can't >>> >> >> >> >> > get >>> >> >> >> >> > with this argument RP, far too many holes in it. >>> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> >> > On Sunday, 23 September 2012 15:20:45 UTC+1, RP Singh wrote: >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> Conscious beings are a proof of God because otherwise an >>> >> >> >> >> >> unconscious >>> >> >> >> >> >> Being >>> >> >> >> >> >> could not be said to exist. Existence is the seed which >>> >> >> >> >> >> finds >>> >> >> >> >> >> its >>> >> >> >> >> >> growth in >>> >> >> >> >> >> life. >>> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> >> > -- >>> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> > -- >>> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > -- >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > -- >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > >>> > >>> > >> >> -- >> >> >> > > -- > > >
-- ( ) |_D Allan Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living. I am a Natural Airgunner - Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly. --
