Hello Mihai,

I installed the current snapshot 2015-12-28 and the corresponding
athn-firmware for 5.9
Here is the output from dmesg and the debug output from 'ifconfig athn0
debug'
'ifconfig athn0 scan' got result 'none' but I am connected with my BlackBerry
Classic
and my notebook (Toshiba Portege Z930-12J). The scan with my NB shows 7
active
AP's.
I got the same error 'athn0: Device timeout' with -current.

Here are the outputs.

Friendly regards, Stefan


--dmesg--

OpenBSD 5.9-beta (GENERIC.MP) #1783: Sun Dec 27 17:08:42 MST 2015
    dera...@amd64.openbsd.org:/usr/src/sys/arch/amd64/compile/GENERIC.MP
real mem = 4261076992 (4063MB)
avail mem = 4127813632 (3936MB)
mpath0 at root
scsibus0 at mpath0: 256 targets
mainbus0 at root
bios0 at mainbus0: SMBIOS rev. 2.7 @ 0xdffb7020 (7 entries)
bios0: vendor coreboot version "APU2A_20150928-13-gdfdf4a2-dirty" date
11/06/2015
bios0: PC Engines apu2
acpi0 at bios0: rev 2
acpi0: sleep states S0 S1 S2 S3 S4 S5
acpi0: tables DSDT FACP SSDT APIC HEST SSDT SSDT HPET
acpi0: wakeup devices PWRB(S4) PBR4(S4) PBR5(S4) PBR6(S4) PBR7(S4) PBR8(S4)
UOH1(S3) UOH3(S3) UOH5(S3) XHC0(S4)
acpitimer0 at acpi0: 3579545 Hz, 32 bits
acpimadt0 at acpi0 addr 0xfee00000: PC-AT compat
cpu0 at mainbus0: apid 0 (boot processor)
cpu0: AMD GX-412TC SOC, 998.25 MHz
cpu0:
FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUS
H,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,HTT,SSE3,PCLMUL,MWAIT,SSSE3,CX16,SSE4.1,SSE4.2,MOVBE,POPC
NT,AES,XSAVE,AVX,F16C,NXE,MMXX,FFXSR,PAGE1GB,LONG,LAHF,CMPLEG,SVM,EAPICSP,AMC
R8,ABM,SSE4A,MASSE,3DNOWP,OSVW,IBS,SKINIT,TOPEXT,ITSC,BMI1
cpu0: 32KB 64b/line 2-way I-cache, 32KB 64b/line 8-way D-cache, 2MB 64b/line
16-way L2 cache
cpu0: ITLB 32 4KB entries fully associative, 8 4MB entries fully associative
cpu0: DTLB 40 4KB entries fully associative, 8 4MB entries fully associative
cpu0: smt 0, core 0, package 0
mtrr: Pentium Pro MTRR support, 8 var ranges, 88 fixed ranges
cpu0: apic clock running at 99MHz
cpu0: mwait min=64, max=64, IBE
cpu1 at mainbus0: apid 1 (application processor)
cpu1: AMD GX-412TC SOC, 998.14 MHz
cpu1:
FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUS
H,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,HTT,SSE3,PCLMUL,MWAIT,SSSE3,CX16,SSE4.1,SSE4.2,MOVBE,POPC
NT,AES,XSAVE,AVX,F16C,NXE,MMXX,FFXSR,PAGE1GB,LONG,LAHF,CMPLEG,SVM,EAPICSP,AMC
R8,ABM,SSE4A,MASSE,3DNOWP,OSVW,IBS,SKINIT,TOPEXT,ITSC,BMI1
cpu1: 32KB 64b/line 2-way I-cache, 32KB 64b/line 8-way D-cache, 2MB 64b/line
16-way L2 cache
cpu1: ITLB 32 4KB entries fully associative, 8 4MB entries fully associative
cpu1: DTLB 40 4KB entries fully associative, 8 4MB entries fully associative
cpu1: smt 0, core 1, package 0
cpu2 at mainbus0: apid 2 (application processor)
cpu2: AMD GX-412TC SOC, 998.14 MHz
cpu2:
FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUS
H,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,HTT,SSE3,PCLMUL,MWAIT,SSSE3,CX16,SSE4.1,SSE4.2,MOVBE,POPC
NT,AES,XSAVE,AVX,F16C,NXE,MMXX,FFXSR,PAGE1GB,LONG,LAHF,CMPLEG,SVM,EAPICSP,AMC
R8,ABM,SSE4A,MASSE,3DNOWP,OSVW,IBS,SKINIT,TOPEXT,ITSC,BMI1
cpu2: 32KB 64b/line 2-way I-cache, 32KB 64b/line 8-way D-cache, 2MB 64b/line
16-way L2 cache
cpu2: ITLB 32 4KB entries fully associative, 8 4MB entries fully associative
cpu2: DTLB 40 4KB entries fully associative, 8 4MB entries fully associative
cpu2: smt 0, core 2, package 0
cpu3 at mainbus0: apid 3 (application processor)
cpu3: AMD GX-412TC SOC, 998.14 MHz
cpu3:
FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,PAE,MCE,CX8,APIC,SEP,MTRR,PGE,MCA,CMOV,PAT,PSE36,CFLUS
H,MMX,FXSR,SSE,SSE2,HTT,SSE3,PCLMUL,MWAIT,SSSE3,CX16,SSE4.1,SSE4.2,MOVBE,POPC
NT,AES,XSAVE,AVX,F16C,NXE,MMXX,FFXSR,PAGE1GB,LONG,LAHF,CMPLEG,SVM,EAPICSP,AMC
R8,ABM,SSE4A,MASSE,3DNOWP,OSVW,IBS,SKINIT,TOPEXT,ITSC,BMI1
cpu3: 32KB 64b/line 2-way I-cache, 32KB 64b/line 8-way D-cache, 2MB 64b/line
16-way L2 cache
cpu3: ITLB 32 4KB entries fully associative, 8 4MB entries fully associative
cpu3: DTLB 40 4KB entries fully associative, 8 4MB entries fully associative
cpu3: smt 0, core 3, package 0
ioapic0 at mainbus0: apid 4 pa 0xfec00000, version 21, 24 pins
ioapic1 at mainbus0: apid 5 pa 0xfec20000, version 21, 32 pins
ioapic1: misconfigured as apic 0, remapped to apid 5
acpihpet0 at acpi0: 14318180 Hz
acpiprt0 at acpi0: bus 0 (PCI0)
acpiprt1 at acpi0: bus 1 (PBR4)
acpiprt2 at acpi0: bus 2 (PBR5)
acpiprt3 at acpi0: bus 3 (PBR6)
acpiprt4 at acpi0: bus 4 (PBR7)
acpiprt5 at acpi0: bus -1 (PBR8)
acpicpu0 at acpi0: C2(0@400 io@0x1771), C1(@1 halt!), PSS
acpicpu1 at acpi0: C2(0@400 io@0x1771), C1(@1 halt!), PSS
acpicpu2 at acpi0: C2(0@400 io@0x1771), C1(@1 halt!), PSS
acpicpu3 at acpi0: C2(0@400 io@0x1771), C1(@1 halt!), PSS
acpibtn0 at acpi0: PWRB
cpu0: 998 MHz: speeds: 1000 800 600 MHz
pci0 at mainbus0 bus 0
pchb0 at pci0 dev 0 function 0 "AMD AMD64 16h Root Complex" rev 0x00
pchb1 at pci0 dev 2 function 0 "AMD AMD64 16h Host" rev 0x00
ppb0 at pci0 dev 2 function 1 "AMD AMD64 16h PCIE" rev 0x00: msi
pci1 at ppb0 bus 1
athn0 at pci1 dev 0 function 0 "Atheros AR9281" rev 0x01: apic 4 int 16
athn0: AR9280 rev 2 (2T2R), ROM rev 22, address 04:f0:21:14:ca:c0
ppb1 at pci0 dev 2 function 2 "AMD AMD64 16h PCIE" rev 0x00: msi
pci2 at ppb1 bus 2
em0 at pci2 dev 0 function 0 "Intel I210" rev 0x03: msi, address
00:0d:b9:3f:9d:d8
ppb2 at pci0 dev 2 function 3 "AMD AMD64 16h PCIE" rev 0x00: msi
pci3 at ppb2 bus 3
em1 at pci3 dev 0 function 0 "Intel I210" rev 0x03: msi, address
00:0d:b9:3f:9d:d9
ppb3 at pci0 dev 2 function 4 "AMD AMD64 16h PCIE" rev 0x00: msi
pci4 at ppb3 bus 4
em2 at pci4 dev 0 function 0 "Intel I210" rev 0x03: msi, address
00:0d:b9:3f:9d:da
"AMD CCP" rev 0x00 at pci0 dev 8 function 0 not configured
xhci0 at pci0 dev 16 function 0 "AMD Bolton xHCI" rev 0x11: msi
usb0 at xhci0: USB revision 3.0
uhub0 at usb0 "AMD xHCI root hub" rev 3.00/1.00 addr 1
ahci0 at pci0 dev 17 function 0 "AMD Hudson-2 SATA" rev 0x40: apic 4 int 19,
AHCI 1.3
ahci0: port 0: 6.0Gb/s
scsibus1 at ahci0: 32 targets
sd0 at scsibus1 targ 0 lun 0: <ATA, SATA SSD, S9FM> SCSI3 0/direct fixed
t10.ATA_SATA_SSD_466F07550B9400388890
sd0: 15272MB, 512 bytes/sector, 31277232 sectors, thin
ehci0 at pci0 dev 19 function 0 "AMD Hudson-2 USB2" rev 0x39: apic 4 int 18
usb1 at ehci0: USB revision 2.0
uhub1 at usb1 "AMD EHCI root hub" rev 2.00/1.00 addr 1
piixpm0 at pci0 dev 20 function 0 "AMD Hudson-2 SMBus" rev 0x42: SMBus
disabled
pcib0 at pci0 dev 20 function 3 "AMD Hudson-2 LPC" rev 0x11
sdhc0 at pci0 dev 20 function 7 "AMD Bolton SD/MMC" rev 0x01: apic 4 int 16
sdmmc0 at sdhc0
pchb2 at pci0 dev 24 function 0 "AMD AMD64 16h Link Cfg" rev 0x00
pchb3 at pci0 dev 24 function 1 "AMD AMD64 16h Address Map" rev 0x00
pchb4 at pci0 dev 24 function 2 "AMD AMD64 16h DRAM Cfg" rev 0x00
km0 at pci0 dev 24 function 3 "AMD AMD64 16h Misc Cfg" rev 0x00
pchb5 at pci0 dev 24 function 4 "AMD AMD64 16h CPU Power" rev 0x00
pchb6 at pci0 dev 24 function 5 "AMD AMD64 16h Misc Cfg" rev 0x00
isa0 at pcib0
isadma0 at isa0
com0 at isa0 port 0x3f8/8 irq 4: ns16550a, 16 byte fifo
com0: console
com1 at isa0 port 0x2f8/8 irq 3: ns16550a, 16 byte fifo
pcppi0 at isa0 port 0x61
spkr0 at pcppi0
lpt0 at isa0 port 0x378/4 irq 7
wbsio0 at isa0 port 0x2e/2: NCT5104D rev 0x52
uhub2 at uhub1 port 1 "Advanced Micro Devices product 0x7900" rev 2.00/0.18
addr 2
vscsi0 at root
scsibus2 at vscsi0: 256 targets
softraid0 at root
scsibus3 at softraid0: 256 targets
root on sd0a (5e81260170a45aa4.a) swap on sd0b dump on sd0b


--ifconfig athn0 debug--

athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 40 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 44 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 48 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 52 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 56 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 60 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 64 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 100 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 104 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 108 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 112 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 116 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 120 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 124 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 128 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 132 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 136 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 140 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 149 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 153 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 157 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 161 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 165 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 1 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 2 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 3 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 4 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 5 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 6 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 7 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 8 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 9 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 10 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 11 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 12 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 13 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 14 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 36 mode 11a
athn0: end active scan
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 40 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 44 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 48 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 52 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 56 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 60 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 64 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 100 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 104 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 108 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 112 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 116 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 120 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 124 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 128 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 132 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 136 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 140 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 149 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 153 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 157 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 161 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 165 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 36 mode 11a
athn0: end active scan
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 1 mode 11b
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 2 mode 11b
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 3 mode 11b
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 4 mode 11b
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 5 mode 11b
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 6 mode 11b
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 7 mode 11b
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 8 mode 11b
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 9 mode 11b
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 10 mode 11b
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 11 mode 11b
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 12 mode 11b
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 13 mode 11b
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 14 mode 11b
athn0: end active scan
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 1 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 2 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 3 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 4 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 5 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 6 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 7 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 8 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 9 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 10 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 11 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 12 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 13 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 14 mode 11g
athn0: end active scan
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 36 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 40 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 44 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 48 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 52 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 56 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 60 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 64 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 100 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 104 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 108 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 112 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 116 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 120 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 124 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 128 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 132 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 136 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 140 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 149 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 153 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 157 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 161 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 165 mode 11a
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 1 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 2 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 3 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 4 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 5 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 6 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 7 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 8 mode 11g
athn0: sending probe_req to ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff on channel 9 mode 11g



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-m...@openbsd.org [mailto:owner-m...@openbsd.org] Im Auftrag von
Mihai Popescu
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. Dezember 2015 00:24
An: misc@openbsd.org
Betreff: Re: wle200nx WiFi card on apu2b4 - no link

> seems that I am not alone.

This can be changed. But you and other users need to provide some
information.

Try a snapshot install and simple commands like:

$ ifconfig athn0 scan (this scans for available WiFi networks) $ ifconfig
athn0 debug (enable debug mode)

Be sure your AP is accesible and fully functional, if you can provide some
info about AP, too. Test it with other client. If it is not a standard one,
check for not so common settings, forced modes, etc...

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