I still say that we the people are not doing our job. Insisting that our government not make the plan that every time we turn around, we need to go to war. Bush should have been impeached for many reasons and we either need to bomb the hell out of them in a lake of fire now than stay there forever. You wrote a splendid letter Travis.
Linda ________________________________ From: Travis Maddox <twayn...@hotmail.com> To: missouri liberty coalition <missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com> Sent: Tue, November 10, 2009 10:16:16 PM Subject: RE: A culture of political correctness I too have not replied to this nor many other threads not because I do not care but mostly because I choose to sit and observe others so that I may continue to learn how people think and react to this and other situations. It seems I have been discussing this matter of the rights of man for several days now with numerous people. It startles me how few seem to truly grasp the philosophy of liberty, liberty not just for US citizens but for all of God's creation. Many only see freedom as it is "guaranteed" by the Constitution believing that those not under the documents jurisdiction should not be afforded the same rights. When in fact the Constitution guarantees no rights it merely only highlights some of those rights to ensure their security from a destructive government. When ever we find government attacking or destroying a humans rights it is our duty to combat against that said government. I am not an anarchist nor do I advocate that but when we truly understand liberty we should then strive as a people to create and restrain the smallest government possible. It is a shame the we as a people have not developed, evolved or become enlightened enough (however one might believe) to live peacefully in a society without the need for government involvement. Most dream of a utopia but realize it may never happen. This is why I as well as many of our founders saw that government was needed but only to protect the individual rights of a person. This is evident in the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence - ... certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,.... Of course these opinions go much deeper and much farther back than even the above document. Many have come to the understanding that man is naturally born free simply because of his/her humanity and that when any person or group of persons (government) violate or control that person unduly (i.e. control them for a reason other than protecting another's rights) they have themselves violated all laws of nature and have themselves committed a far greater crime. This is why I devote myself to opening others eyes to the fact that any control over another person is in itself a crime. So you see this isn't about oil, land, religious extremism or who attacked who first it is simply about us allowing a power in our land to grow so large that they control us and destroy the human rights of man not only here on our own soil but abroad, through out the world simply for plunder, domination, revenge or even a cheaper product. The possibility to exist as a truly free people will never come into fruition until we as a people grasp that concept. Not just for us but for all humanity. Travis Maddox ________________________________ From: catr...@juno.com To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: A culture of political correctness Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 21:30:36 -0600 Whether we had to go over there or not is sort of mute, but being the world economic leader and how the world depends on the oil of the middle east…this decision was made by more powerful people then me in the economic game (notice I did not say politics…that is a side game of the real power players…the people with the money who are not politicians). What got me was the paragraph that Eric wrote that sounded just like Obama apologizing for the USA interfering in WWI, in WWII, and in other wars. That these people would not come over and Kill us if we did not interfere in their countries. Well, due to agreements made by politicians that have shrunk the world economics (many of which I did not agree with but have been drug along into and watched our agriculture suffer due to it), a leader must come to the front. I used to think that it would be the USA, but at the rate that we are being sold down the river for apologizing for our existence by people everywhere…some other country will come out into the front and then we will be the third world nation that so many desire us to be. I am tired also, but I will go and look up the scriptures that you suggest and reread them. But I stand by what I said…I will not apologize that we have had to go over there and become involved in a fight that is not ours and yet we cannot withdraw from or be seen as being weak by the very people that we are fighting and fighting for due to their way of societal strategies of power. The very hate, that you are talking of, of being part of a group, is being used against us, but we are to apologize for feeling this way. Why? It is okay for them to feel this hate because we supposedly “invaded” their territory, and when they invade us…we are to turn our back because we “deserve” it. This is what I will not apologize for. Not with all of the lives that this country has given to the world to defend the rights of freedom. No, I will not apologize if I tend to lump the fanatics into a group that I fear. CathyM Catren's Shar Pei Catren's Leather Show Accessories Kill"The Killing Fields" Bills of the HSUS www.americanssupportinganimalownership.com From:missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Davis Family Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:14 PM To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: A culture of political correctness Cathy, Since most of your comments are to Eric, I will not go into detail in my response, but did I hear you right? You are saying that we HAD to go over there and take the oil from them because we need it more? I must have misread something there, I am tired after all, but that is what it looked like to me. And this is going to be personal, but I think it may be helpful to you to revisit Gadianton. And also Ether 8 and D&C 89 especially the first few verses about Conspiring men. I think that if you read about Captain Moroni and what the Lord said about fighting in our lands that you will see the bigger picture of liberty and what it means. No one is saying that there was not a crime committed. We are talking about protecting the rights of all individuals. We were talking about sweeping claims that groups all of a certain faith into a category that is worthy of hate, disdain and death on the spot. I was talking about hate being used as a tool, and we ALL know the source of hate and fear, and if THAT is what is motivating us and driving us, then we better pay attention to who we are following and whose agenda we fulfill. On Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 7:36 PM, CathyM <catr...@juno.com> wrote: >>The fact is that we have caused much of the problem ourselves by putting people in a position where they think that attacking us is necessary for their survival and the survival of their culture/faith/ traditions. Yes, many of them would probably hate us regardless, but they would not put so much effort into KILLING us, traveling long distances and sacrificing themselves in the process, were it not for the extreme provocation we offer by INVADING AND OCCUPYING their homelands. We would do the same thing. Religious wackos are all over, but they mostly stay at home, harmlessly spouting crap unless provoked or cracked down on.<< Eric I have sat back and read everything, but I am going to turn your words around here. You are correct, if we invade they have the right to defend. Well, now they are invading us, do we not also have that right? Why must we say "We deserve it because we started it?" Why must we as USA citizens make excuses for being a powerful nation that has a say in world economics? Energy needs caused us to have to step into these countries. If they did not have the internal fighting of the factions that they have and conducted themselves with the same decorum that we have to being citizens of the USA, we would not have to step in to preserve our personal right to survive. I am sorry, in all of this I am reading apologies for being a USA citizen. I am not apologetic for being a USA citizen or a Christian. I am sorry that we have to be lured into internal conflicts between factions that have been going at one another for centuries, but I am not apologetic for it. I am sorry that the Muslim faith is undergoing this persecution that they are, but I am not apologetic for being fearful or defending myself from the fanatics of such. Why is it that I am supposed to as a USA citizen respect others for their beliefs and be careful not to trod on them when they trod on mine every day? Why are their traditions any more important than mine? So we ate pork. WE EAT PORK EVERY DAY IN THIS COUNTRY! I will eat it abroad and not apologize anymore than if they eat horsemeat here in the USA because it is part of their tradition. I am not expected to downgrade them or feel that they are trampling on my beliefs, but to be accepting of them. I EXPECT THE SAME IN RETURN! In other words - TOLERANCE on both sides, but for some reason it is always the USA citizen that is to be tolerant of everyone else but no one has to be tolerant of me??? Everything that you are saying is apologizing for me being a USA citizen. Apologizing for my relatives and forefathers fighting for their beliefs and rights, for giving up their lives for that freedom. I am done apologizing. Don't tell me that I deserve them coming over here and fighting for their country by killing our soldiers. This guy was a USA citizen that converted to Muslim. He knew what he was doing. He didn't even have the excuse that the terrorists had from 9/11 of defending his country. He attacked his country. It is that simple. CathyM Catren's Shar Pei Catren's Leather Show Accessories Kill "The Killing Fields" Bills of the HSUS www.americanssupportinganimalownership.com -----Original Message----- From: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com [mailto:missourilibertycoalit...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Eric Vought Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 8:12 PM To: missourilibertycoalition@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: A culture of political correctness On Nov 9, 2009, at 3:12 PM, Fred B. Ellison wrote: [quoting Guy Rodgers] > Fox News contributor Lt. Col. Ralph Peters (retired) exhibited a > courage and clarity that has been lacking in most media coverage when, > during two different interviews I saw, he angrily and indignantly > denounced what he referred to as a "culture of political correctness" > in the leadership of the military. > > He pointedly asserted that this was an act of Islamist terrorism, and > listed just some of the telltale signs to back up his position. > For instance: > > . Nidal Hasan opposed the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and would > argue with his patients, vets returning from combat, against the > justification for the wars. > . Hasan said the "war on terror" was in fact a war against Islam. [snip] Fred, *I* believe in at least these first two points and I would argue that, from their point of view, Muslims ARE being oppressed by the US both abroad and within our military. Now I have no specific love of Islam and believe they are in the wrong boat, religiously, but I also see no need to support oppression of them. I will defend to the death their right to profess faith in Islam as quickly as I would defend to the death YOUR right to profess hatred of them (I will argue against you, but I will never suggest that you should not speak or should be persecuted). I should make it clear that I have a good deal of respect for you personally and the sacrifices you have made to try to make Springfield a better place. This discussion does not change that and please do not take any of this as a personal attack. But I believe you are wrong here. Evidence suggests that suicide bombers DO consider themselves equivalent to soldiers throwing themselves on grenades (or staying behind to blow up a bridge and cover a retreat) and commit violence as an act of sacrifice to a larger cause. They do not do it for 100 virgins and a mint julep or whatever. They are largely well educated, articulate people who choose to blow themselves up, not the poor, desperate, mindlessly religious people we like to paint them as and despise. [Read Pape's Dying to Win for an exhaustive statistical analysis of suicide bombers, their reasons, and their backgrounds.] As such, the Army is not doing what they are because of a culture of "political correctness" (or at least I hope they are not) but rather from a realization that cracking down further will make the matter much worse. It will give lie to the idea that we are a country of freedom and that the military is "spreading" that freedom rather than the fact that we are killing people every day in their own homes for their beliefs. If that were not the case, why did we not send people into Iraq to "free" the locals who were actually trained in the language and culture of the people living there? Why do we openly sell/ serve PORK in the "green zone" during the fasting of Ramadan (I mean, COME ON, talk about TACTLESS!)? Why do we train our soldiers to hate and kill "ragheads"? Why MAKE THEM right about us? There is a problem, but the enemy IS us. I have no problem whatsoever with national DEFENSE. I have no problem at all with the military and people who have dedicated their lives in its service. I have a BIG PROBLEM with imperialism and religious bigotry (against ANY religion) in our foreign policy and it is coming home to roost. More hate is not the answer. We are being taught to hate abroad to keep our minds off the fact that we are being screwed at home and to make us paranoid about our neighbors who are different from us so that we won't dare trust them and work together to get the bastards in DC out of office. As Christians, we are commanded to preach and minister to the gentiles, not shoot them. Sincerely, Eric Vought "Faith does not absolve us from trying to understand our world and make moral distinctions with the eyes and brain given us. Religion is as much responsibility as direction: Duty not Distinction." No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.59/2494 - Release Date: 11/10/09 07:38:00 -- Visit http://www.fragrantsmoke.com Learn the 28 Principles of Liberty http://www.theprinciplesofliberty.com ________________________________ Windows 7: Unclutter your desktop. Learn more. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ This is a Free Speech forum. 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