please disregard turns out that my network was at fault On 20 May 2012, at 15:59, [email protected] wrote:
> Send MLUG-list mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of MLUG-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Meeting with MPs (Effie Ciantar @ GMail) > 2. Re: Meeting with MPs (Keith Vassallo) > 3. ubuntu mirror offline (Jonathan Aquilina) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 13:03:07 +0200 > From: "Effie Ciantar @ GMail" <[email protected]> > To: Malta Linux User Group - general list <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [LINUX.ORG.MT] Meeting with MPs > Message-ID: <1337511787.22052.33.camel@My-NetBook> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Dear all, > > I do not know what was discussed in last Saturday's meeting about this > issue, but I would like to contribute my penny's worth for the position > paper. Here goes ... > > Before approaching politicians with what we want to tell them about Open > Source, we need to put ourselves in their shoes and ask ourselves what > they would want to know about this issue. > > All change carries risk, and politicians (like any businessmen worth > their salt) will want to maximise the positive impact of any change (the > louder the bang, the better) and minimise the risks. If we do not > manage this, than our endeavour is a non-starter. > > If, however, we do manage to convince them, we will then need to point > out clearly what action needs to be taken for these gains to > materialise. > > Therefore, I believe we should focus on these three issues: > > 1 ? The Bang: > > For the politician, in this case it will probably be mainly the > financial savings. This will need to significantly offset all costs that > will be incurred as a result of any changeover (costs of installation, > retraining, recreation of certain functions like macros, etc). Can we > come up with some indicative figures, eg. from some other countries or > from the business sector? > > 2 ? The Risks: > > Although we could talk about the stability, security, transparency etc > of Open Software, perhaps the easiest way to convince them is to give > them examples from other nations, departments (e.g. Department of > Defence of a particular country), large multinational companies and > large national companies who have adopted Open Source successfully. The > argument would be that if there are any grave risks involved, these > entities would not have even dreamed of adopting Open Source, and the > fact that they have been successful means that we could be as well. We > could also mention the large number of servers that run on Open Source > Software (again, figures would help). > > Technical comparisons between Open Source and Propriety Software, or the > philosophical virtues of Open Source is unlikely to ignite politicians' > imagination. > > The rapid development cycles (e.g. twice a year for Ubuntu vs only once > every so many years for Windows) could also be of some concern, although > one could go for Long Term Support versions. > > Another risk they might be concerned about (if they are savvy enough) > could be what might be considered to the the lack of financial incentive > for long-term commitment for such software to be still around in 5, 10 > or even 20 years' time as compared to the great financial incentive > there is for large companies to survive. I do not have an answer to > this problem but some of you out there may. > > These less obvious risks do not necessarily have to be brought up by us > (we do not want to alarm the politicians unnecessarily), but we must be > prepared with answers to such questions in case they come up. > > Also, to minimise risks in general, we could suggest starting with a > pilot study by adopting a single software product in a single department > that uses non-specialised (generic) software (e.g. Libreoffice in the > Ministry of Justice) rather than for Open Source Operating Systems and > Software for the Inland Revenue Department or, worse still, for all > government hardware from the MITA servers down to the last secretary's > pc. > > We must also acknowledge that in some areas, there is no substitute for > Windows e.g. a medical laboratory machine that comes with software > written for Windows only. > > 3 ? The Action: > > Finally, we need to point out to politicians that the biggest stumbling > block for this change to take place is the Tendering Process, which has > to change to allow Open Software to 'compete' with propriety software. > With all the conviction in the world, nothing will happen unless such > practices change. > > Effie > > > On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 06:03 +0200, Daniel wrote: > >> we can put it on the agenda for next Saturday's meeting...... >> >> >>> Well, if there's a time when politicians are willing to listen, it's >>> now. After the election they'll feel safe with 5 years ahead of >>> them. If we can get statements of support we can use them later, >>> reminding them of their support for OSS. Besides, there are several >>> grassroots movements at the moment like the one against ACTA. I'm >>> sure most politicians would want to be on the right side of any such >>> movement. >>> >>> I think we should contact all parties to arrange a meeting. We'd >>> need to have some concrete proposals first - maybe a position paper. >>> This could mention things such as OSS in education, adopting open >>> standards for government services (especially if we can identify any >>> services which currently do not), etc. >>> >>> Ramon Casha >>> >>> >>> On 14 May 2012 19:51, Daniel <[email protected]> wrote: >>> Thanks Ramon. I agree 100%. Just a question: why we Maltese >>> are most of the time passive, being a Maltese gemgem in >>> small groups, and never trying to change at least some small >>> things ? We cannot change MPs overnight (no illusion), but >>> if we never try then we lost the battle already. I prefer to >>> die on the battlefield, trying at least, rather then being >>> at home repeating the same negative attitude..........maybe >>> that's why many countries did protest on the first of May >>> (about working conditions) and Malta was the only nation >>> which did not protest!!! >>> >>> It's up to us to make our voice meaningful and loud enough >>> to be heard by the local media. We can start as well talking >>> to our friends who work on TV, radio or newspapers....... >>> >>> One final note: when I was a child I expected my parents to >>> do all the dirty work. As an adult I don't expect anybody to >>> do my work. especially working hard for the principles I >>> believe in. And I don't count the value of my principles by >>> the amout of response I get. If nobody hears me, then after >>> a self evaluation, I keep trying on and on. My favourite >>> writer wrote: I was born a fighter and not a loser! >>> >>> Daniel >>> >>> >>> >>>> If we do and say nothing at all, we will be giving them >>>> the message that we don't really care about these things. >>>> If they've got people like Microsoft and others lobbying >>>> to get their closed-source solutions into government and >>>> nobody saying otherwise, they will go with what Microsoft >>>> wants. >>>> >>>> >>>> Ramon Casha >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14 May 2012 09:12, iain <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> They will just tell you what they think you want >>>> to hear. Unless >>>> something is done beforehand, why should you >>>> believe *anything* they >>>> tell you they'll do after the elections? >>>> >>>> On 12/05/12 19:13, Daniel wrote: >>>>> How about organising a meeting with both parties >>>> in view of the >>>>> forthcoming elections regarding their policies >>>> of open source? >>>>> >>>>> Daniel >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> MLUG-list mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>> http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> MLUG-list mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> MLUG-list mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> MLUG-list mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> MLUG-list mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list >> >> -- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> MLUG-list mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 13:46:25 +0200 > From: Keith Vassallo <[email protected]> > To: Malta Linux User Group - general list <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [LINUX.ORG.MT] Meeting with MPs > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Hi Effie, > > Thank you very much for your insight. I've added some comments below. > > On 20 May 2012, at 13:03, Effie Ciantar @ GMail wrote: > >> Before approaching politicians with what we want to tell them about Open >> Source, we need to put ourselves in their shoes and ask ourselves what >> they would want to know about this issue. > > Amen! > >> Can we >> come up with some indicative figures, eg. from some other countries or >> from the business sector? > > Several papers have been published by local/national governments on their > transition to open-source, we should definitely check them out. > >> Technical comparisons between Open Source and Propriety Software, or the >> philosophical virtues of Open Source is unlikely to ignite politicians' >> imagination. > > Amen! > >> >> The rapid development cycles (e.g. twice a year for Ubuntu vs only once >> every so many years for Windows) could also be of some concern, although >> one could go for Long Term Support versions. > > Exactly - a government would definitely go for an LTS. Indeed, I don't even > think they'd go for Ubuntu at all. I see them more as RHEL or CentOS users. > >> Another risk they might be concerned about (if they are savvy enough) >> could be what might be considered to the the lack of financial incentive >> for long-term commitment for such software to be still around in 5, 10 >> or even 20 years' time as compared to the great financial incentive >> there is for large companies to survive. > > This is again why I think the government would opt for an enterprise > distribution should this ever happen. > >> Also, to minimise risks in general, we could suggest starting with a >> pilot study by adopting a single software product in a single department >> that uses non-specialised (generic) software (e.g. Libreoffice in the >> Ministry of Justice) > > Yes. Technically, quite a few schools and government departments already use > open-source software, especially utilities. This would be a more natural > transition. > >> 3 ? The Action: >> >> Finally, we need to point out to politicians that the biggest stumbling >> block for this change to take place is the Tendering Process, which has >> to change to allow Open Software to 'compete' with propriety software. >> With all the conviction in the world, nothing will happen unless such >> practices change. > > A local or international company would have to place the tender. Many times > open-source alternatives are not considered just because there is no > representation and hence no tender submitted. Natural choices coming to mind > would be RedHat representatives in Malta (Philip Toledo Ltd., ICT Solutions > Malta). > > Also remember that the government, starting this Summer, shall be > transitioning all Windows XP computers to Windows 7. So we can't really push > an OS change in the middle of another OS change. Going for some open-source > software to go with the transition, however, is much more viable. > > K > > >> >> Effie >> >> >> On Tue, 2012-05-15 at 06:03 +0200, Daniel wrote: >> >>> we can put it on the agenda for next Saturday's meeting...... >>> >>> >>>> Well, if there's a time when politicians are willing to listen, it's >>>> now. After the election they'll feel safe with 5 years ahead of >>>> them. If we can get statements of support we can use them later, >>>> reminding them of their support for OSS. Besides, there are several >>>> grassroots movements at the moment like the one against ACTA. I'm >>>> sure most politicians would want to be on the right side of any such >>>> movement. >>>> >>>> I think we should contact all parties to arrange a meeting. We'd >>>> need to have some concrete proposals first - maybe a position paper. >>>> This could mention things such as OSS in education, adopting open >>>> standards for government services (especially if we can identify any >>>> services which currently do not), etc. >>>> >>>> Ramon Casha >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14 May 2012 19:51, Daniel <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Thanks Ramon. I agree 100%. Just a question: why we Maltese >>>> are most of the time passive, being a Maltese gemgem in >>>> small groups, and never trying to change at least some small >>>> things ? We cannot change MPs overnight (no illusion), but >>>> if we never try then we lost the battle already. I prefer to >>>> die on the battlefield, trying at least, rather then being >>>> at home repeating the same negative attitude..........maybe >>>> that's why many countries did protest on the first of May >>>> (about working conditions) and Malta was the only nation >>>> which did not protest!!! >>>> >>>> It's up to us to make our voice meaningful and loud enough >>>> to be heard by the local media. We can start as well talking >>>> to our friends who work on TV, radio or newspapers....... >>>> >>>> One final note: when I was a child I expected my parents to >>>> do all the dirty work. As an adult I don't expect anybody to >>>> do my work. especially working hard for the principles I >>>> believe in. And I don't count the value of my principles by >>>> the amout of response I get. If nobody hears me, then after >>>> a self evaluation, I keep trying on and on. My favourite >>>> writer wrote: I was born a fighter and not a loser! >>>> >>>> Daniel >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> If we do and say nothing at all, we will be giving them >>>>> the message that we don't really care about these things. >>>>> If they've got people like Microsoft and others lobbying >>>>> to get their closed-source solutions into government and >>>>> nobody saying otherwise, they will go with what Microsoft >>>>> wants. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ramon Casha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 14 May 2012 09:12, iain <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> They will just tell you what they think you want >>>>> to hear. Unless >>>>> something is done beforehand, why should you >>>>> believe *anything* they >>>>> tell you they'll do after the elections? >>>>> >>>>> On 12/05/12 19:13, Daniel wrote: >>>>>> How about organising a meeting with both parties >>>>> in view of the >>>>>> forthcoming elections regarding their policies >>>>> of open source? >>>>>> >>>>>> Daniel >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> MLUG-list mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>> http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> MLUG-list mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> MLUG-list mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> MLUG-list mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> MLUG-list mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list >>> >>> -- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> MLUG-list mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list >> >> _______________________________________________ >> MLUG-list mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: smime.p7s > Type: application/pkcs7-signature > Size: 4362 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > <http://linux.org.mt/pipermail/mlug-list/attachments/20120520/4845ed3e/attachment-0001.bin> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 20 May 2012 15:55:38 +0200 > From: Jonathan Aquilina <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: [LINUX.ORG.MT] ubuntu mirror offline > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Is the mirror offline for some reason I am trying to do a net install of > 12.04 but for some reason its not able to connect to our mirror. > > Regards > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > MLUG-list mailing list > [email protected] > http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list > > > End of MLUG-list Digest, Vol 96, Issue 13 > ***************************************** _______________________________________________ MLUG-list mailing list [email protected] http://linux.org.mt/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-list
