On 2011-11-30, at 4:45 PM, Patricia Campbell wrote:

> afaict POSIX is still an active standard ieee  why do you say POSIX died ?

hej,
   Out of complete ignorance.  From what I remember posix died, but I am 
referring to a working committing and not a standard... I just did some 
googling and it seems that I completely wrong.  -- I am not sure what I was 
thinking.  Sorry for the confusion.

Takk
Hro

> 
> 2011/11/30 Hroðgar Skjöldung <[email protected]>
> Hej hej Patricia,
>   Yeah, I dont think ACLs were polished before POSIX died.  Thus, there 
> are(where) several standards but linux works.  When you write "production 
> system", I have seen ACLs in HPC 1000+ users, 10+ groups ( I dont do webdev 
> nor banks so I have no idea the issues there ).  As for applications being 
> integrated.  ACLs can't be ignored (unless SUID), but they can be forgotten. 
> This is an issue of proper-form. poor form:  when editing, some app's make a 
> copy and then write files based on umask, not the previous permissions.
> 
>   From my chair, I have never run in to issues, that I couldn't overcome, and 
> I have none in mind that would suggest to not use them, but that is if you 
> need them...
> 
> --Getting back to your question.  The real boss is your users, if you have 
> users that demand certain files are secured/private but have discrete access 
> to certain users/groups you need acls ( but you know that already).
>    That is either you make thousands of groups, one for each particular 
> situation, or you use acls.  I assume you already have a usage model based on 
> M$, but if not you will want to take the time to assess the best way to 
> implement them.  ACLs can create lots of maintenance if done wrong at the 
> beginning ( I assume you know that too :).
> 
> nb: If you use sticky bits on dirs the perms and acl will be copied to the 
> enclosed files.  This, as I hinted to previously, _can_ make for a very sad 
> filesystem (depending on the depth & # of files)
> 
> 
> Anyway, I hope this was of some help.
> Bless bless
> Takk
> hro
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 30, 2011, at 12:50 AM, Patricia Campbell wrote:
> 
> I know what ACLs are and I have used them in Windows AD and with OpenLDAP 
> quite extensively.  I am not convinced that they are useful in Linux.
>  You do not have to use ACLs with SELinux.  I have never come across them 
> being used in production or live systems.  I was looking for examples as my 
> experience with POSIX acls was that they were not properly integrated.  Some 
> utilities were unaware of them and ignored or overrode them.
> 
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 12:01 AM, Valery Shaevitch <[email protected]> wrote:
> For an easier search ::
> http://www.google.ca/search?gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Access
> +Level+Control+%2B+SElinux
> 
> Val
> 
> On Tue, 2011-11-29 at 23:41 -0500, Valery Shaevitch wrote:
> > Tricia, hi
> > Well, first of all, (I guess you do) you should understand ACL = Access
> > Level Control
> >
> > If you use SElinux (Security Enhaced Linux), then you you MUST than you
> > must use ACL, first understanding how it works.
> > Well, a small example is a Windows platform (2003 and later) where you
> > may create groups or users by their properties (read permissions)
> > Well, it is not like ususal Unix*s 777 or 0755 or whatever comes here
> > but it is pretty similar.
> > The strange (for me) fact that I've got the idea how it works
> > was a job exercise where I should've create a bunch of users
> > in M$ server 2008 with different access levels. (that was in Hitachi)
> > Look at the net, search google for ACL or Access Level Control + SElinux
> >
> > I've got a lot of help there )))
> >
> > Wish you luck
> >
> > Val
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 2011-11-29 at 23:27 -0500, Patricia Campbell wrote:
> > > Thanks for the reply.  I'm not sure what you mean by "if you need them
> > > they are the only way" can you elaborate?
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 29, 2011 at 9:47 PM, Hroðgard Skjöldung
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >         Hi,
> > >           I have used them several times in different environments.
> > >          If you need them, they are the only way...
> > >
> > >         Caveat:    I suggest anyone using them should be very familiar
> > >         with managing complex groups, the use of permissions, sticky
> > >         bits etc.   --One painful example I heard of recently was a
> > >         site containing thousands of ACLs on files that were already
> > >         covered by the enclosing directory. The number of ACLs &
> > >         inodes will be the only real limit to look at..
> > >
> > >         ie: if you have permissions granted by a directly,  the files
> > >         inside only need to have world access ( for w r or x what ever
> > >         you need  ) this can save lots of over head
> > >
> > >
> > >         Nota bene, compatibility with other ACL is a bit of a pain, if
> > >         you are sharing with windows you may look at CIFS instead.
> > >          NFS was a pain,  but I think those bugs are mostly fixed now.
> > >
> > >
> > >         Gluck!
> > >         Hro
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >         On 2011-11-29, at 8:02 PM, Patricia Campbell wrote:
> > >
> > >         > Does anyone out there use them ?  Or have you heard of
> > >         anyone using them, or where they are useful?
> > >         >
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